KotH Rocktop rc2

By ok comp

  1. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    IMGUR

    Rocktop is a King of the Hill map with a focus on vertical gameplay and aerial combat over the point.

    After being shelved for nearly three years, I’m dusting off Rocktop to take it to the finish line. Life happened and I was unable to follow through with the project, but now I have the opportunity to make good on all the advice, goodwill and encouragement I received to see this map to completion.

    I would like to again thank the community and those that run this site for all the help provided so far, and I look forward to some fun and productive playtesting :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  2. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Looks nice, but that height advantage over the middle, I think it might give the current holders a good grasp over the point, making the gameplay more of a "who can cap first" type thing.

    Also, it looks very open around the point/spire structure, which will just add to the power that the holding team will have.

    Although, I do like the start, I have been wondering how a map like this would play out. So keep at this one.
     
  3. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    Thanks for the input! I agree with you, one of my concerns at this point is that height advantage, how extreme it is, and how that will affect the balance.

    With other KOTH maps, the point generally leaves you relatively exposed in some way (long range attacks in Nucleus, quick flanks in Harvest, or just general exposure in Viaduct as all routes lead into the center cap). I see it as a balance where the point must feel safe enough to cap, but also allows viable and desirable options for the other team to attack the capping team. How flawed this design may be in Rocktop will be revealed through playtesting, but I'm thinking of some design options now that I could employ for various scenarios later down the road once we see how it performs.

    I just spent the last week out of town, so now that I'm back I am going to put this map up for testing soon!

    EDIT: Thanks to everyone that helped playtest the map today. First impressions? I'll reserve my more detailed thoughts for later, but I feel like the map is just a bit cramped... anyone else feel that way?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  4. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    Thanks to everybody that has been responding with feedback. I'm getting some useful information.

    One thing I've heard a bit of negative feedback on is having to go up stairs to leave spawn. I think the sensation is worsened by the fact that the terrain outside of spawn also slopes upward, and the upper ledge on the building across from spawn. If one team manages to push the other team out of the central area and into their spawn area, it becomes that much harder to overcome that situation with the height disadvantage. So that will be addressed.

    For a2, I'm going to be experimenting with a structure on the cap point that should limit the advantage of being on the point, making it riskier to cap the point by allowing more counterattack opportunities.

    Another great bit of feedback I got was how it felt there were no good places to build a sentry. I had a suspicion that could be a problem, and finally hearing it confirms that suspicion. I will make an effort to address that in the next update.
     
  5. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?gnil1l728q73kj4

    We pugged your map tonight, it was pretty fun.

    -Too little or too much cover on the point? Is the cover arranged poorly? I am debating a possible covered structure above the point as well.

    I like the point the way it is, allows for a lot of airshot opportunities and, while such things aren't really that important, it makes a map a lot more exciting when you double a demo or soldier trying to jump you.

    -Is the central area too narrow? At the moment, Scouts can make the jump from the central point to either battlements... bad for the layout or not?

    I don't think this was that much of an issue, I kind of like it the way it is since it allows scouts to move a little more easily between those two points.

    -Speaking of exposed battlements, do Snipers feel they have any advantageous spots, or constantly exposed?

    Sniper was played a little on the map, I don't remember if they were really that effective but I don't really like it when a sniper can completely shut down a map like you can on Viaduct.

    -Are additional routes needed to and from the main area?

    I think the 3-4 routes you have to mid now is pretty good, they're currently at such a layout that you can't really shut down all of them that easily but, at the same time, the map is still simple enough that you're never really guessing about where the other team is going to come from.

    -Are the spawn exits too close to one another?

    I don't think this was an issue since spawn camping is kind of difficult and it was usually more advantageous to defend by standing on the point and killing their jumpers before they made your medic pop

    -Engineers... do you feel you have places to build?

    We usually limit the classes that can be played pretty heavily when we first play a map since, if a map doesn't play well with vanilla comp classes, it probably won't play well with a heavy or engineer turtling a point; so, engineer wasn't allowed in this pug so I can't really say much about the places to build.
     
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  6. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    Wow! That was very thorough feedback waxpax, I really appreciate it.

    I'm surprised to hear such positive feedback about the openness of the map, and I'll have to keep that in mind. With the next update, I am going to be testing a covered structure over the point. There are going to still be rocket jumping opportunities to get there, but it won't be hosting any aerial battles directly over it. Nothing is set in stone, of course. If that feels like a poor decision after testing, it will be easy enough to revert it back.
     
  7. qpingu

    qpingu L1: Registered

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    I played it with wax, and it was definitely quite difficult to push onto the point. Any large push can be spotted from quite some distance and shut down. My suggestion would be to extend the exit from the middle and offer some cover down there. You want to encourage people to jump onto the point, and yet the other team has massive height advantage, making that route unviable.

    Also, the other team ran a sniper but he was ineffective. I think this has more to do with this particular sniper, as he had a TON of targets with little room for people to hide. Sniper should be extremely effective on this map sniping down the routes on both sides (and a medium health pack right there for the defensive sniper).
     
  8. Boylee

    aa Boylee pew pew pew

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    I have to say I enjoyed this when I played it, the one thing I'd suggest is that you could maybe use a long route to the point that has a lot of cover, maybe an underground route that exits in via the minecart tunnel by the point.
     
  9. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?f1ltcda4mqtc7wy

    We played your map again tonight. It was sort of hard to retake the point, some people didn't like that only the explosive classes could really get on the point easily. One person suggested a ramp from center batts to the point, that would allow you to actually push out of the center since you would otherwise have to pop as your soldiers jump then run up the stairs and hope you can catch your soldiers by the time you get on the point proper. The group we had tonight didn't seem to have as much fun on the map as we did with the earlier play test.
     
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  10. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    Ramps to mid are certainly another thing to consider, and I appreciate the feedback once again! I'm just about to drop a2 for testing, which features a reworked center point with a covered structure, more cover overall throughout the map, an additional far right path into the central area, and an expanded area on what I'm calling "bridge-side" (other side being arch-side). I'm hoping the somewhat covered point and more cover throughout the map will make it easier for a team trying to retake the point, particularly certain classes that rely on cover to progress (pyro, spy, etc)
     
  11. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    a2 has been released!
     
  12. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    [​IMG]

    I don't like how you spawn facing the right instead of facing the most direct route to the point, I think it could confuse a lot of people and end up slowing everyone down. Maybe you can change the placement of the stairs so you can spawn facing forward and still see that the stairs are an option?

    Also, Stalin was looking at the map with me just a little bit ago, I think he has quite a bit to comment on but I'll leave that to his post.
     
  13. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    That's strange, because no info_player_teamspawn entity should be facing that far right (see picture below). Thanks for pointing out your concerns with spawn though. My intention was to position every spawn point with a view of both lower exits, but primarily toward the most direct one.

    [​IMG]

    Your point about the stairs is something I had considered when designing the room, and ultimately felt that with the design I had in mind, it would look best on the back wall. That was probably a bad call on my part, but my thought process was that it wasn't likely players would go that long without noticing that route existed, eventually. My bigger concern was whether or not players would avoid using the route because it requires you to go backward before progressing forward. Either way, I can easily mirror the staircase, place it up against the front wall (interfering with the construction of the room very little), and move the spawn points back a bit so they can view all three exits. Now that I think about it, I can't really think of any examples in Valve maps where there are spawn exits that exist behind where you spawn. I guess that's the first thing I'll be adding to my a3 todo list!
     
  14. gr8stalin

    gr8stalin L1: Registered

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    We've pugged your map during the New Map Weekend pugs quite a bit, and it's become pretty damn popular due to the middle point being a spire (prime place for airshots and whatnot). Everyone loved a1, but as Wax and I looked at a2 today, there were a few things I saw that looked like they would spoil a lot of the fun of the map.

    Case 1

    A lot of players used the battlements to jump for the point and deal as much damage as they could to create an opportunity to push. Well, now it's gone. Also, the tiny sniper windows from Goldrush stage 1 are reminiscent of the battlements on Viaduct: a place where a sniper can sit with little worry of retaliation as any spam that DOES happen to make it through the windows can be easily dodged, give the space of the area itself. In the last version, Sniper was useful in getting picks and had a good view of the point and areas around it via the battlements and both side routes to the point, but he wasn't invincible: he could be jumped on by a soldier, hit by a scout, or spammed by a demoman. I support the return of the a1 house area.

    Case 2
    Case 3

    The house ruins the entire dynamic of rocket-jumping to the point in order to surprise the enemy and deal damage/get kills. It forces people to walk into the house where the defenders have every advantage and no reason to leave: they cannot be spammed and they can easily spam back. In any iteration of gameplay (competitive and public), it would be hell if an engineer got in there with a sentry of any kind or level. Most players who like to follow us in keeping up with maps were displeased with the addition of the house as well, also citing that they could not find a way to hit people on the point without being focused by the entire enemy team. I noticed that the house also kills any possible usage of the central route, as any team controlling the point can turn that center route into Dustbowl Stage 3. My suggestion for a middle ground would be to cut the house in half horizontally to remove the roof while still providing around the same cover.

    However, I do like the changes to the route up the spire: the shield is useful to both sides, and the ammo boxes and health kits are well placed. Also the areas with the medium health and ammo that were partially shielded were also good additions, as not many koth_ maps have forward areas where teams can build ubercharge. We'll still be pugging a2 regardless of my first impressions to let you know how the changes work. Keep at it, because this map is looking really good!
     
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    Last edited: May 16, 2011
  15. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    Awesome feedback, Stalin!

    You caught me on a few of the things that I had reservations about, but not completely sure why. The battlements are a good example of that. I felt a more concealed battlements could help a losing team from being stomped on, but I hadn't considered the loss of mobility from not being able to jump off the battlements, and pretty much forgot that it was one of the reasons I had originally set it up that way. I will be revisiting this in the next revision.

    I really like your suggestion about cutting the structure over the point so that, at a low level, it provides cover, but yet would still allow aerial attacks. I feel that some type of dilapidated, partially collapsed wood shed could fit that design need.

    So I guess we'll see how the response is to a2. As it was originally envisioned, I did want a high, open point that really offered a lot of aerial strategy opportunities. So I shouldn't compromise that intention for the wrong reasons or in the wrong ways. I really appreciate you taking the time to provide that thorough feedback!
     
  16. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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    http://www.mediafire.com/?qpq8b3s6bsmdu4d

    stv from tonight's pug, i wasn't there as my computer died recently, but here's the criticism stalin gave me:

    koth_rocktop_a2

    - House on point played better than initially expected, not a gigantic shitfest
    - Forseen problem of being able to completely render the middle entrance useless from house appeared multiple times
    - Forseen problem of sniper sightlines and easy cover in middle house area
    - Players can stand on the doorway and window edges inside the house, allowing players to effectively hide themselves from the other team
    - Request: small bits of the point not covered by the house should let players stand on them
    - Request: make end of wood bridge leading into house a hemisphere to give more medic mobility
    - Request: create more ammo kits around the point itself, not only limiting them to the forward building areas and walk up to spire
     
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  17. ok comp

    ok comp L2: Junior Member

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    a3 has been released!

    Changes:

    -Layout:
    --Sniper windows removed, battlements deck added back in, additional door added to battlements
    --Modified structure over control point to be partially destroyed, encouraging more aerial combat over one half of the point while still providing cover for other classes on the other half
    --Reworked spawn area and spawn entities so that every player faces main spawn exit and can view other spawn exits without having to turn around
    --Removed clipping over cart tunnel of bridge-side

    -Detailing:
    --Implemented and began work on 3D skybox
    --Various detail and displacement work done in out-of-boundary areas and skybox
    --Began general prop placement in spawn areas and other out-of-boundary areas
     
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  18. Tyker

    Tyker L5: Dapper Member

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    It was fun to play and the detail that is there is a nice base!

    I did not like the medium health in the corners though. It feels like too much of a risk to get them. Maybe instead put a small health near the ammo packs at the sides of the point?
     
  19. waxpax

    waxpax L5: Dapper Member

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  20. Bakscratch

    aa Bakscratch Finisher of Maps

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