Redoing at the Gameday Rules?

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by Fr0Z3nR, Apr 7, 2011.

  1. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Redoing of* the Gameday Rules

    Alright, so as I'm sure many other people have noticed and have heard/voiced their opinion about, the same maps seem to get into the gamedays before anyone else can. I have been talked to about this already a couple times (and it's only my first time hosting a gameday) and I believe the arguement does have some merit. I figured I'd post this now seeing as we have new people running gamedays currently, so why not a new, updated, shiney set of rules that make everyone happy.

    Here are the current rules:
    With the current rules, they are there more-or-less as rules of gameplay, along with the "No reserveing spots" rule.

    I'm not going to suggest anything because I'm not sure what the best way to go about doing this is, but I would like a discussion on if they rules need changeing and if they do, what should be changed. I will say that I think that there should be some consideration toward low alpha maps a1/a2 and possibly b1 maps, that would allow them to have more push into getting into a gameday because they are "new"

    Sorry for the wall of text, and if you did, thanks for reading. I'm hoping to keep this to a non-flame-war and to something that is actually productive.
     
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  2. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    Do the gameday rules have to be the same for all gamedays? Maybe you can just declare "My gameday - my rules. I will prefer new maps over older ones. If other hosts think the rules are fine the way they are, it's their gamedays and their decision".
     
  3. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I don't know if the hosts setting their own rules is the best way to go to do this. If they did that then people would be confused between gamedays because one set of rules is different than the other, and overall I don't think that will help. I don't want to see "EU Gameday a4+ maps" on the forums because its kinda degrading to those sub a4, and if the hosts of the 2-3 gamedays have similiar rules about a min for versioned maps, then the people below that level won't be able to test at all..

    Basically no, I think that overall set of rules for every gameday should be considered first and tried before anything specific happens.
     
  4. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    Would it be too unreasonable to suggest that VIPs be allowed, in theory, to upload other's maps for impromptu testing? If more people (including non-donators) were able to use impromptu testing instead, I'm guessing that would clear up a bit of the load on gamedays. I understand the counterargument that this would remove incentive to subscribe, though...

    My initial suggestion was to give non-donators higher priority on gamedays, but this would be such a disincentive to donate that most people would agree it's not a good idea.
     
  5. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    I'm not suggesting a strict cutoff "your map is in beta? GTFO!". I'm more suggesting giving lesser-tested maps and maps by newer authors more priority instead of current "first in thread - first in gameday" system.
    As for people getting confused, thats what reading the rules is for.

    I think that the need to get admins permission or admin himself to upload is pretty much an empty formality because I've never heard of someone being refused upload.
    With both your suggestions, VIPs still have the ability to upload maps without begging anybody and still have the ability to organize and host an impromptu any time they please, which still is a nice incentive.

    For the nonVIPs who don't hang out in chat often, gameday is pretty much the only way to get their maps tested. Maybe we could have a "nonVIP gameday" every now and then.
     
  6. Mr. Happy

    Mr. Happy L6: Sharp Member

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    Having alpha only or nonVIP gameday's is a good idea I think but if and only if they were in addition to the regular ones. Or were simply precedence. As for version limits, it should be based on how many times the map has been played in gameday(/impromptu?) rather than filename. Just giving preference to maps that didn't make it into previous gameday would probably work. So, if seven people post and there are five slots but the last two people to post tried and failed to get into the previous two gamedays they would be moved up. Also, take into account timeslots, if someones map has been at the end of rotation every time it's tested, give them an earlier spot. I guess that's already done to some degree?

    I think the best thing would be to adjust the times that maps get. There is no reason (imo) to test all 'regular' maps for thirty minutes. That's what most pub servers set their timelimit to so I think that's a maximum limit that doesn't need to be reached. Since (I hope) you want to get the most maps in and also not lost players by spending way more time than is neccessary on bad maps I would suggest:

    All maps get 20 minutes (arena: 15?)
    OR
    All maps get 25 minutes, arena 15-20, koth 15-20, single orphaned 20 (since 15min can equal 1 round/team).

    With the first option that makes 3 hours = NINE MAPS.
    With the second option that makes 3.333 hours = 7 maps (+/- for arena/koth/orphan)

    I didn't play in much testing before this fall so I don't know if times like this have been tried and if they worked or not.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  7. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    I completely agree. Maybe 1 per week or 1 per 3 regular ones.


    I don't think cutting times would be a good idea tho because oftenly some time is being spent just learning the map. I'd prefer to keep the times the way they are and give the maps a good and thorough test instead of a quicker run-through.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  8. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Adjusting times was something that crossed my mind. it would allow for more maps, really sometimes it only takes 1-2 rounds of a map to get the feel for what is wrong, so shorter time might be something worth experimenting with.
     
  9. theharribokid

    aa theharribokid

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    I think a non-VIP gameday could solve the problem as looking at past events usually half the submissions are VIPs. However I don't think it should be that regularly if we do have one, maybe like the first gameday of the month be non-VIP? Also just because you have VIP status doesn't mean your constantly on the forums to get in on regular gamedays and in chat constantly to organise impromptus. Also I think there should be a rule that your map cant be in more than one gameday a week unless there is still room at submission deadline. Oh and I would like to add to this rule:

    by saying that there be a note asking for people to not update the map they're testing after this deadline or at least 12 hours before the event e.g. submit your map cp_example_a4 and update to _a5 less than 24 hours before gameday, as i'm not going to be around early before to check for bugs/unplayable maps, i'l be hopefully doing that the day before.

    Edit: I don't think changing the 30 minutes playtime rule is worthwhile at all
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  10. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I thought this was understood? I had to do this to someone this morning.
     
  11. Mr. Happy

    Mr. Happy L6: Sharp Member

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    Still allowing people to update 12-18 (not 24) hours before gameday would be nice. That would allow the mapper leeway in getting it ready for testing. I.E. you might have a version on the server that is good and a newer version you are working on that just needs some clipping/hinting/sky/other cleanup. If someone submits a4 and updates to a5 and you don't have time to test a5 just run a4.

    Also just saw this,
    Absurd. 1 map/test is more sensible if there are going to be multiple tests per week.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  12. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    The deadline is so that people don't post a map and then do a ton of changes and basically "reserve" a slot for their map.

    And thats what it says, its 1 map/test/week if you have multiple maps you have to post them on 2 seperate test. I find this as a good rule because it doesn't allow for people who have a ton of time on their hands to test, then map for the next couple days, and post the next version of their map on the next test. THAT will cause maps to constantly show up in gamedays.
     
  13. Corvatile

    aa Corvatile exercise cawtion

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  14. Mr. Happy

    Mr. Happy L6: Sharp Member

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    So you are saying that if someone tests cp_map_a1 on wednesday you don't want them submitting a2 for friday? That makes sense if there are alot of people trying to get in but there are/will be rare occassions when the test fills up. why not let them submit? Also, what if someone is working on two tottally seperate maps? You don't want them testing their CP map on monday and their PL on wednesday?

    I can understand that, but I dunno. I can also understand that you want people with less time to map to have more of a chance to test. But I think there are edge cases were the person should be allowed to submit but simply given a lower priority. Ideally it would be all about ranking maps priorities rather than restricting what can be entered but then again no reason to make it really hard and complicated for gameday hosts.
     
  15. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Yes, but it would best to have the mediveal mode entity in the map so that it automatically becomes medieval without th need of a server command.


    EDIT: @Mr. Happy: No if you have 2 seperate maps (like a PL and a CP map) you cannot post them on the SAME DAY, but you can post them on 2 seperate days (So PL on tuesday, CP on thursday. But not PL AND CP on tuesday.)
     
  16. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    My suggestion is: the first hour of every gameday, or the first hour of one gameday a week, is reserved for new maps. If there arent enough to fill it, continue as normal. If there are too many, people who submit first get in. rest of the gameday then goes to other mappers, on first-come-first-served or whatever basis.

    New maps get half-an-hours primetime testing. Other mappers can still get in if theyre quick, almost nobody loses. Except old, slow people, but we can get them motorised wheelchairs/impromptus.
     
  17. Mr. Happy

    Mr. Happy L6: Sharp Member

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    Cool frozen, cool, I like that. So one last thing in determining maps: order of operations. Look at what maps have been played on past game days and whether or not the map is new FIRST. Ideally I think 'first come first serve' should be done away with completey. It makes it easier on the host, which is important, but is less useful. Use it as a last resort to determine whether one of a few maps will be played and timeslot, rather than as the first cull on the entire set of maps.
     
  18. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

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    I actually started giving priority to maps that hadn't been tested in another gameday within the past week. Don't think I actually put it in the rules though.
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Same. I've rejected maps that have been tested within the last 7 days. Presumably people just get mixed up with impromptu's. Though that's not to say i havn't let maps like strata or crossroads in a second time because the slots aren't full. But that has nothing to do with me.

    Prioritising alpha over beta is a bad idea. Reducing beta submissions only serves to hurt player interest and player counts in the gameday. I'm saying this because alpha maps tend to cause 4-6 players leave and in extreme cases empty the server. Also as a level designer who's tried to get alpha maps tested outside of TF2M many communities wont accept alpha. Which could be used as an arguement for prioritising alpha testing here, but just goes to show how the public respond to alpha maps. We rely on both public and regular member support/activity to continue doing what we do.

    Whilst we should take pride in our community's efforts for providing a rare service (alpha testing) we also need to take the health of a gameday event into consideration. It is far more productive to take in a variety of game modes and maps at different stages of development, including alpha and beta, than it is to create alpha only or beta only events. Beta maps are after all creating more attention that help alpha maps get recognition and testing they need.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  20. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

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    Thought this was an unwritten rule from the beginning. At least that's how I submit my maps.

    Anyway I think the current format is fine, but I would support lowering the time limit to 20 minutes.