Question about flanking routes in a map.

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Aman, Dec 14, 2014.

  1. Aman

    Aman L5: Dapper Member

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    So I just have a quick question. When laying out or building your map is there a such thing as having too many flanking routes? If so how will you know so you can avoid it? (Besides waiting for player feedback)
     
  2. shadowslasher11

    aa shadowslasher11

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    I think the best solution to this is to look at maps like Gorge. Where corridors and entrances into rooms are really open along with a nice amount of height variation which gives enough running around room.
     
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  3. henke37

    aa henke37

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    There is such a thing as too many flanking routes. If players become unable to find each other to loosely come from the same direction at the same time then they aren't going to be able to take on strongly defended areas.

    Also keep in mind that players are dumb. Too many routes confuse them.
     
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  4. Shogun

    Shogun L6: Sharp Member

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    Generally it's a good idea to keep all the flanks in one area. Look at an official map like Badwater, Granary, or Gorge. The flanks are all centralized around the main combat areas. There aren't any long hallways that lead off to some obscure area far away from combat, or halls with 4-5 separate doors leading off to different rooms. If you follow this rule, she number of flanks should be determined by the map itself because you shouldn't have anything that leaves the main area.
     
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  5. Aman

    Aman L5: Dapper Member

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    Thanks for the input.
     
  6. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Players generally are not dumb, they are just narrow sighted. They don't see the signs in front of them because they are in the game, first person, concentrated. If the map is new, they are going to call it shitty just because of that reason.

    But the more they are forced to play it, the more they will like it if it's not too simple and has multiple ways to win. I used to like maps such as dustbowl a lot because they are simple, but due to that reason, i also try to avoid them as much as i can, because i find them not fun to play for, for being so simple. More i play the game, more challenging and complex maps i like. If it's over complex, then it's game over though.
     
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  7. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    You made a mistake there. Badwater has a major area near cp 2, and it has some lesser ones near cp1 and cp4. Badwater is one of the few maps that shows the beauty of good flanking. The areas feel a bit away from the map, but are still close enough to never be empty of combat. Its a map designed in a way where taking over the flank is a primary task to proceed.

    Flanks should make sense and people should be triggered to take them. In badwater they did that by making the main path a narrow bottleneck. This made the flanks a main combat zone since using the main path often results into death.

    But still, the flanks are still somewhat the same area, and that makes them good. People see the area being there, they know they can walk ik but still try to avoid having to go there.

    Upward shows the same trick by making the high ground at cp2 the flank and the underground path the main path. You seperate players completely from each other but they can still swap the paths fast enough.

    For payload its normal to have 1 main path, a primary flank, and a counter to the flank (3 paths which are often quite close to each other).
    For linear CP maps they however seperate it to 2 paths in which the player can be countered by players taking the other path.
    And for A/D CP maps they often have 2 main paths for a cp, and a 1 way flank to support both paths by harrassing the strongest defense positions.

    And another thing to watch for. Players dont look around corners when searching for paths. They only look straight forward and only look to the sides when they face a wall. If you make a U turn that leads into the flank then its most likely going to be missed as flank as they will just walk forward. A T or Y shape however doesnt stop them from taking a flank as its just left or right
     
  8. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    Hence people still end up getting lost on Steel despite C being RIGHT THERE.
     
  9. fauks

    fauks L2: Junior Member

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    Avoid thinking of main vs flank routes. Try to have 3 routes that suit different situations, like:
    1) Do we/they have uber? Where will the combo hold/push?
    2) Is there a pyro/engineer/sniper/demo camping X route? Ours or theirs?
    3) How many players do we/they have alive?
    4) Where can our squishy classes go?

    Generally, you try to have 3 routes of varying:
    Directness (direct to objective vs longer)
    Chokyness (Width x Length of openings)
    Height advantage (at entry or exit)

    Bonus points for:
    One-way paths like dropdowns

    Think about:
    1) If defenders are really good, how do you give attackers a chance?
    2) If attackers are really good, how do you give defenders a chance?

    Finally, avoid making too many routes. When there are good players, an excess of routes will make defenders too scared to push out, therefore leading to stalemates. If they push and it's impossible/impractical to check all routes, and a scout or spy caps the last point, that sucks. I'm pointing at you, Gullywash.

    All of the above is written with 5CP Push in mind. May or may not apply to other modes.
     
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  10. fauks

    fauks L2: Junior Member

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    Furthermore, good map design will always give players route decisions within connector areas.

    A connector area (e.g. Granary garage, Process sewer) should have 2 forward exits, and 2 rear exits.

    More than 2 forward paths = hard to hold.
    Less than 2 forward paths = hard to push.

    I usually compare Granary and Gullywash.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2014
  11. Aman

    Aman L5: Dapper Member

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    Since I notice some people using other maps as examples, what do you all think of flanking routes like the one under the last point on cp_gullywash?
     
  12. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I think the point to note about this example in badwater is that "that CP2 flank" is the only flank *and* the main route has next to zero cover. So although it is out of the way, it is really the only alternative option. Plus, although the flank itself is out of the way-ish, the entrance and exit of said flank are not. Players don't have to adventure to get to the flank.

    The general rule for flanks is balancing it along a spectrum of design choices. Height advantage, cover, travel distance, distance to objectives and opposing spawns, ammo/health.

    I've found that a large flank with perhaps a chance to rejoin the main path via a mostly 1 way route (such as a drop down) before the flank exit is often the most popular design choices. You will not normally want more than 2 flanks as it dilutes players too much and will end up taking up huge amounts of space, especially if your map isn't linear it can become difficult not to have pointless winding paths.
     
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  13. fauks

    fauks L2: Junior Member

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    I absolutely hate the rear entrance to Gullywash last, and the whole 'river' route.
     
  14. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

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    I think it's good, but it has no reason to *be* good, so it's not something you should take any kind of queue from.