Production

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by h3r1n6, Sep 18, 2009.

  1. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Hi,

    This is my first post on this forum, as well as my first map in its first release :). I chose to make an arena map, because it is one of my favorite game modes.

    Name:
    Originally I wanted to call it factory, but that name is taken, so I searched for a good substitute thats not taken. Production sound pretty good to me, so I went for it.

    General idea:
    It should be a relatively large map with a semi-complex layout, that is at the same time easy to understand. A decent class balance and a fun to play map are obvious goals of every map. I want to offer a good amount of tactical options as well.


    Working on:
    -details
    -layout
    -optimizing
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  2. Fede22

    Fede22 L1: Registered

    Messages:
    17
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    OK, I downloaded the map, but I got some problems. Some soldis do not show up (I can see props levitating). The metal plate supporting the CP also doesn't show up. I don't know if it is a problem with my game or with the map or materials. Perhaps it has an invalid solid structure? The roof also doesn't show up for me.

    I liked the structure of the map. It is creative. I think that you should make it a little more cramped, becouse some times it can feel too big, as if it were wasting space. Sentry placements seem good.

    What I didn't understand much is how to get to the CP. The plate it was on didn't work for me, but I can see from the pictures that it is a rectangle hanging from wires. I only managed to get there with double jump or rocketjump. Maybe I missed something?

    I think that if you give it a nice, detailed theme (more colours), and make it a little bit smaller or tight, it can be a great map. Also, the city around it gives it a nice touch.

    So, thats my amateur review. I think this map is headed into a good direction. :)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

    Messages:
    1,242
    Positive Ratings:
    393
    From a stylistic point, don't use hl2 textures.

    The map almost looks to have an air of you-have-been-thrown-into-this-random-arena-dont-think-about-how-just-kill-the-bastards. I suggest you give the map a better style, even though this is secondary to the function of the map, which you seem to have under control. Submit it for gameday though, sounds interesting.
     
  4. Shadow Tyrant

    Shadow Tyrant L69: Deviant Member

    Messages:
    69
    Positive Ratings:
    3
    The fact that you can see the spawn room of the opposing team is concerning. Especially in arena, where having the upper hand on your opponent is critical. It makes the Spy's surprise technique essentially useless, because the enemy can see you. In addition, if the enemy sees what classes you are, they can change to it's counter-class. Then you change to the counter of that class, and then they in turn counter that class, and then the pre-round timer ends and you end up with the short stick.

    Just something to take into consideration.
     
  5. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Thanks for commenting, and sorry for uploading crap, should've checked. :/

    I compiled the map without func_details. Don't you hate it that hammer compiles the map without stuff, if you make it invisible?

    With the details, you have wooden planks to go up to the cp, and can also jump on it from the big ramps (I think even heavies can do that jump there)


    And you can probably tell I am not really an artist, even without the func_details (with them there are no flying props :D), I am more of the competitive type.


    Anyway, new version uploading now, gonna update it when its done. This time in a zip.

    Edit:
    What do you mean by seeing the opponents spawn? They are on opposite sides, you really shouldn't be able to see it.
    And what exactly is gameday? I keep reading about it, and a quick search hasn't revealed much, except more people mentioning it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2009
  6. Shadow Tyrant

    Shadow Tyrant L69: Deviant Member

    Messages:
    69
    Positive Ratings:
    3
    Sorry, are those big rooms with the computers not the spawn rooms? I just presumed they were since they're the most prominent enclosed structures in the screenshots. If not, I guess there's not really a problem.

    That'll teach me to comment on maps without downloading them first.

    They're right about the HL2 textures though. As a rule you should only use TF2 textures in TF2 maps.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Update to beta2. Most of the op still refers to b1. Now this needs some testing. Don't wonder about the 5th screenshot. I only took 4 usable screenshot and the 5th was from the b1 center, so I replaced it with Vince.

    One question:
    Are HL2 textures an absolute no go, or is it ok in some places? I kind of like the window texture I used for the roof, and its not like many people look up anyway ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  8. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Updated to b3.

    Class balance seemed good now from the playtest. Snipers/scouts aren't too strong, pyros are a viable option too. While testing it, every area was used too, with the focus being on the center, just as I intended it to be. I am happy with the result how the map plays.
     
  9. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    261
    Positive Ratings:
    110
    It's...Big.


    It's pretty but it's freaking HUGE. Don't get me wrong, surprisingly, it seems to play pretty well so far with no specific class having any significant advantage... But it's huge!

    Then again, vertical combat is good, so... Carry on.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    I wanted it to be big. My first sketch intended it to be a bit larger. the first version was a lot larger. Maybe it is still too large (at least for an arena map), but I intend it to be for bigger teams, 9v9+.


    For the next update, I will change the layout of the stairs outside, which will make the outside of the map smaller and decrease the length of the way from spawn up there.

    One thing that I think of redesigning too are the two rooms in the corners on low ground, but I don't have any idea how.

    That the balance is fine is a combination out of my theory+some input from a friend and playtesting with mostly BiG members. ;)
     
  11. Psy

    aa Psy The Imp Queen

    Messages:
    1,705
    Positive Ratings:
    1,467
    Way too big!
     
  12. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

    Messages:
    4,468
    Positive Ratings:
    1,684
    This is big even for 32 player. :S
     
  13. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Does everybody think that way?

    If I take a look at other maps, in my opinion at least, they supply room for a lot less players. arena_well is best played 4v4 or 5v5. Granary is good at 6v6.
    The bigger maps, sawmill and lumberyard come to my mind, make for good 8v8/9v9.

    I want to keep the complexity of the layout and the rough size, but I agree that some ways are too long, which I am working on for the next release. I will try to cut heavy travel time down in a way, that heavies can get everyhwere in 20 seconds (sawmill from spawn to the control point over the roof is roughly 20 seconds :p).

    The other solution would be to simply move the spawns inside and remove the outside.



    A clan member proposed a ctf version, is there interest in one, or in a KotH version? I'll get to that when I get to the rc.
     
  14. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    b4
    -reworked outside:
    -stairs outside moved to shorten the way from the spawn up and to remove an unecessary area of the map
    -side entrance moved, you now enter the building in the rooms on the low ground
    -minor optimisations indoor
     
  15. Gachl

    Gachl L1: Registered

    Messages:
    7
    Positive Ratings:
    0
    Although the map is very big you can reach every point pretty fast. We've played some hours on that map and imo the size is comparable to a map like watchtower.
    gj vince.

    ~Gachl
     
  16. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    b5
    -some optimisation (the map actualy leaked, probably since around b3, without me noticing :/)
    -small ammo outside is now medium ammo
    -big ammo on the pipe in the middle
     
  17. McNuggetFiend

    McNuggetFiend L3: Member

    Messages:
    149
    Positive Ratings:
    49
    We tried this on our Arena server. We liked some of the ideas, but its just far too massive.
     
  18. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    Hmm thanks for trying it out and giving feedback. I assume it was b4 or b5 you tested, if not might check that out, because it shortens the ways from the spawn a lot, and reduces the areas by a bit.

    I actualy liked the gameplay in our internal tests, and the response was quite positive, with some good ideas. The size didn't really seem to be that much of an issue, even as low as 5v5.

    I want the map to appeal to everybody. I don't want to take away the options it offers right now, but I agree that it is overwhelmingly big at first. As Gachl said, you can get everywhere you need in a decent time.


    Even if I tried to rework it, I don't really have many ideas.

    The only thing that comes to my mind, is scrapping the outside completely and moving the spawns inside, most likely to the rooms on the low ground. I'd have to rework the resource layout and eventualy some areas inside, but that might just work.
    Currently the outside is used for going inside, and for grabbing the healthpack mostly. It can be of some use, but during the match it would be rarely visited.
    Then again, I am not sure how this affects the start. The start is quite important in arena imho, and I like how players currently meet on the two sides of the highground and in the middle. With the spawns there, each team would have their room on the high ground, but not that many options to push into the enemies from there.
    An idea could be to make the point available really quickly, but make it quite long to capture. So you are able to stand on it early to apply pressure for the others to come out.

    If you have any good arguments for one or the other, I need them to make a decision.

    If I move the spawns inside, I need a location where they will be, and then the changes in the layout. If anyone has an idea for a good spawn location+eventual layout changes, or just layout changes to decrease the size, while still keeping the tactical options, tell me :).
     
  19. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

    Messages:
    1,242
    Positive Ratings:
    393
    You gotta be able to kill your baby(a.k.a. map/game whatever, not legit babies :D)

    Sounds like a shrink is very necessary from the comments I've been seeing. What's the total selection side lengths? (I know its not the best way to measure big but an arena map should be no longer than 6000-7000 units of playable area on any side. And thats BIG.
     
  20. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    158
    Positive Ratings:
    95
    It is roughly 3400*2300, 3400*1600 when only counting the inside. In addition to that, with the upper rooms, there is about 50% of that size as additional space. Plus the containers/ramps/cp in the middle.


    It is large, from my point of view it isn't too large though. There is no point releasing a map that no one else likes though :).

    And yes, I will scrap old ideas for new better ones. I redesigned the outside based on input, and I think it was a very good change, because I had a good idea for it.
    However, I am out of ideas (ideas that I really like) to reduce size. I still had some ideas of a few layout changes which might be cool, but they would mostly make the map more complex.