Potential training mode project

HeaH

L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
Oct 2, 2008
553
102
You really don't have to teach sticky jumping. The soldier tutorial doesn't teach you rocket jumping, and rocket jumping is used much more than sticky jumping.
 

Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
The soldier tutorial is about as specific to playing soldier as a book on the basics of using an oven is to teaching you how to make key lime pie.

I expect Valve to introduce more stuff to the tutorial system later, as they can only do so much in a length of time, and like to release half finished things anyway.

In other news, I'd be more than happy to work on the Medic room.
 

Penguin

Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome
aa
May 21, 2009
2,039
1,484
I'll try a pyro room if you like.
 

Owlruler

L12: Fabulous Member
Dec 10, 2008
964
275
Sniper room, calling it.
 

Dr. Spud

Grossly Incandescent
aa
Mar 23, 2009
880
854
I don't think I'll have the time to fully make a room on my own, but I do have some ideas for a pyro room that I'll share to whoever makes it.

Also the warehouse is perfect for sniper training. There are 2 garage doors at the far end of the room that you can open up to reveal long-range enemies.
 

Jakkarra

L4: Comfortable Member
Aug 26, 2009
167
36
Spud, you should stick the map download in the first post, so we may download and edit it accordingly.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
One problem lies in the unlockables/drops. New players, whom are the most likely to utilise the training facility, are the most likely to not have weapons unlocked.

Teaching a scout to FaN jump would be problematic when the chances are the player doesn't have a FaN with which to do so. A lot of things like said Scout movement and other things like Heavy survival tactics/weapon effects will be difficult to demonstate any more efficiently than actual gameplay and the GUI weapon stats.

I find this endeavour by Valve to be largely redundant and much more easily achievable through video tutorials like the black and white video tutorials before unique game modes such as Arena.
 
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Nineaxis

Quack Doctor
aa
May 19, 2008
1,767
2,820
One problem lies in the unlockables/drops. New players, whom are the most likely to utilise the training facility, are the most likely to not have weapons unlocked.

Teaching a scout to FaN jump would be problematic when the chances are the player doesn't have a FaN with which to do so. A lot of things like said Scout movement and other things like Heavy survival tactics/weapon effects will be difficult to demonstate any more efficiently than actual gameplay and the GUI weapon stats.

I find this endeavour by Valve to be largely redundant and much more easily achievable through video tutorials like the black and white video tutorials before unique game modes such as Arena.

Ever since I began playing TF2 in 2007 I have considered it a game best learnt by playing, which makes the tutorials and offline practice both silly inclusions on Valve's part. However, looking at the game in any depth right now in 2010 compared to what it was in 2007 reveals a massive shift, from a simple, streamlined game to a complex game with many little details.

I think Valve realised this as well, and as the last class update approaches, wanted to start laying a base for new users to start at, because at this stage, jumping into a public game as a new player could potentially be extremely overwhelming. And depending on whether they cycle through another series of class updates, it could quickly become even more so, not to mention the inclusion of community weapons, adding more gameplay complexity.

Training mode strips TF2 down to the very basics of what every new player did: choose Soldier and figure out what's up. Whether or not you agree that players should need this, it's functionality exists. On top of this, with the expansion of TF2 to Mac (and some hints at Steam coming to Linux), Valve is massively expanding the market for the game, and likewise, are having to deal with the presence of a completely new user base. And what they do not want is a massive rush of people trying out their game, but ending up overwhelmed, lost, or confused, and not purchasing it.

As experienced players, we can easily frown on it, but in all fairness, for Valve, this was a necessary, if not brilliant move, at bringing new players- a business decision more than a game decision. Same goes for the new menu: they've probably wanted make something better and more fitting than the default Source engine menu for a long time, but the Mac update- and any future platform expansion- pushed the necessity of it to the forefront. Again, experienced players will be resistant to change, but what they've done is made a much improved, highly readable menu that conforms to the aesthetics of the game's UI, improving the experience for new players.
 
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Penguin

Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome
aa
May 21, 2009
2,039
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Nine, you can't honestly believe that the new menu is better.
 

DrHaphazard

L5: Dapper Member
Jan 6, 2008
249
12
Anything that helps out new players and therefore expands the the player base should be encouraged. Also anything that helps players play better should be encouraged.

No one wants to feel or look like a moron simply because they just picked up the game, so showing them how to do basic things offline is an excellent idea.

Both rocket and sticky jumping are thing i think should be taught offline first. Both are somewhat counter intuitive, i mean how many FPSs have a similar mechanic where you actually injure yourself in order to get another advantage. Also the mechanics of rocket jumping are kinda strange, jumping and crouching and what not. Not extremely difficult of course, but if you've never done it, it can be a trick to figure it out.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,441
3,814
Stuff justifying training maps.

If you read my last sentence properly you'll notice that I said I believed the approach to training was "flawed", not that the concept of player training was fundamentally "redundant".

That the subtleties of playing certain classes can only be learnt playing against other players (and the maps that the players play), and that anything specific is more efficiently represented in video format, allowing the circumstance to present itself ingame.

Training maps are fine. I just think they are unnecassery and inefficient considering the alternatives.

That's simply my opinion. I didn't say Valve were wrong, just that i don't agree with their approach.

Edit: Valve already have the capacity to make Source videos, as they have done with the game mode video tutorials. So i find it interesting that Valve would go through the hassle of coding new entities and build new maps when they could simply record the actions in the Source video maker and even execute more of TF2's charming humour in the process. Whilst at the same time presenting new players with solutions to real combat issues in existing official maps.

That's just what i would have expected from Valve that we have come to know to love re-using existing material and work to solve new/old issues, reducing total man hours in achieving the same or similar results and get content out quicker.

edit2: The only considerable difference/purpose i can see is that perhaps Valve are more interested in the community and custom content communities response to this aspect of TF2, having multiple agendas to achieve beyond just teaching players w+m1=win.
 
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CapellanCitizen

L2: Junior Member
Mar 31, 2010
77
16
I was already working on a pyro training map that was a parody of Minerva:Metastasis (BTW Great mod, play it if you haven't already), so this works out.

To be honest, I'm scared about releasing it now, because a massive torrent of bad training maps is about to roll in, only slightly worse than the torrent of Idle maps, and I fear that it will just be swept away.
 

Newb

L1: Registered
Jun 12, 2010
6
0
Remember.
For everything you can't do - there's Sourcemod.
Just create a sourcemod called "Advanced Training" or "Community Training" and add whatever you wish to add that couldn't be done via hammer.
 

Newb

L1: Registered
Jun 12, 2010
6
0
Edit: Valve already have the capacity to make Source videos, as they have done with the game mode video tutorials. So i find it interesting that Valve would go through the hassle of coding new entities and build new maps when they could simply record the actions in the Source video maker and even execute more of TF2's charming humour in the process. Whilst at the same time presenting new players with solutions to real combat issues in existing official maps.

Then how about make a certain training map that has certain bits of OTHER maps in it, to teach you certain strategies on certain maps in order to outsmart your enemies.
Its entirely possible to make in hammer.
 

Porkchop

L1: Registered
Apr 6, 2009
42
11
Then how about make a certain training map that has certain bits of OTHER maps in it, to teach you certain strategies on certain maps in order to outsmart your enemies.
Its entirely possible to make in hammer.

To be honest, there isn't much it can teach you beside the basics. Playing with actual people is an entirely difference experience than with wooden cutouts/bots. The game can be completely unpredictable at times, especially with crits.

There are tons of strategies that can be applied to one point in a map.
 

Moose

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 4, 2009
312
616
I think the most effective training method TF2 could have would be a 'tips' sort of thing, similar to achievements. Each time a player does something wrong/relevant, a tip would pop up to give advice. For example, if you're playing as demoman and miss every pipe you shoot, a tip could pop up to inform you that pipe-bombs don't explode on contact unless the first thing they hit is an enemy.
I realize tips are pretty goddamned annoying in every game I've seen them in, but if they were activated when relevant, I think they could prove to be extremely useful.
It could be integrated into the current training stuff, too, so they wouldn't be ignored or pop up when you don't need them.