- Aug 18, 2018
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- Thread starter Tang
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- Aug 18, 2018
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- Aug 18, 2018
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- Aug 18, 2018
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- Aug 18, 2018
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FlipFTW
L1: Registered
- Jul 12, 2020
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I had the opportunity to play tangtown twice in US tf2maps playtests. I played versions a2 and a3, and seeing the progression of the map as well as walking around a4 I thought I should leave a post on some of the areas I identified as problematic with potential solutions. I've left feedback through VC during games I played, but I didn't have the opportunity to elaborate on much of the ideas - especially with potential solutions.
The fight for Blu Spawn -
Starting with the start of the map, I've noticed that at times there is quite an event when it comes to pushing out of blu spawn. I would think design-wise there seems to be an intended natural progression of taking the high ground and pressuring people using the gates as cover - but I can't help but feel that that high ground route is the least intuitive - and the entrance itself can be annoying to deal with - the escalator makes the portions you exit very limited - and both are in a potential sniper sightline. The biggest changes I would consider to assist blu would be a staircase out of the close spawn door onto the high ground - making it a more intuitive route as well as giving an option for the other two doors besides funneling through exposed lowground. That aside I would suggest closing some sightlines leading directly into the doors. Areas like the cart allow splash very deep into spawn, areas like where the cart bends (defender looking between the gargoyle and the one-way) have a very deadly sightline to the upper spawn area.
Pushing First-
One of the first things I look for is a location to setup where I can cover all entrances - In general I think what makes a payload point interesting is having to rotate to defend key areas - if you can force the defenders to divert resources then make a push for a key area - that's good design, conversely, if you can cover everything from a single location - that's lacking depth.
For starters the left option for attackers is very scary the door dropping immediately into where you might expect a clump of players or the main hold means it has to be closely watched by a tanked splash class or something similar at all times - and even then that would only accomplish forcing the uber early. The only real countermeasure would be to hope you have a capable pyro to deny the uber using the height as cover. I might suggest that the corridor could be made longer so that people pushing it were exposed for a greater period of time, but for the most part it is a very powerful viable route.
Pushing main is difficult given how exposed it is, but that's to be expected for the main cart route. While possible to brute force it, its designed with a lot of favored terrain and corners for red - for a main route this seems fine.
Pushing right (attackers pov) is very difficult given how long the rotation is as well as how difficult the door the rotation leads to is to push out. As mentioned before it doesn't really serve as a functional route because it can be watched from a similar location to watching the main choke - and the size as well as height of the area means anyone who has taken the time for the long flank will likely have to cancel and endure a long rotation or suicide through the tight door.
What I might recommend is sealing the lower area and instead implementing the flank via a cross through choke/main sightline. I think this has the interesting effect of allowing the defending team to react to significant classes headed to the flank. To compensate for the increased vision the defending team has, I'd also suggest the flank exit be adjusted to significant ground. I also think this would reduce the time to poke and rotate back to push a different way, but I haven't measured out the routes and confirmed any of this.
I do think this would make the hold weaker overall, if you're concerned about A being too difficult to defend, I may suggest the left (attacking route) be made to come out on low ground - perhaps near the current placement of health/ammo. I think the angle it comes at would make it difficult for the defenders to commit deeply into without the potential of a rather easy wrap or support from choke favoring the attackers.
Transition from First to Second
I'm not really sure what the purpose of this room was:
I experienced many people mistakenly go this way when pushing last (from rolling out from the forward spawn). I think that it feels like there should be a route here (left side attackers perspective) into 2nd, or if that creates too many routes the room could probably just be removed.
As for 2nd I think that the right route (attackers POV) as well as the sightline main would make it a fairly difficult point to hold - the newest route on a4 seems to allow fast reinforcement here, but the decisive high ground makes me think holding anywhere on the platform (you would need to hold aggressively to prevent a cap) would result in a chunk of damage. It's also worth noting that the skybox over the right route (attackers pov) is very low, its possible to bump it with a single rocket jump - the transition from the 2nd point area to this ledge is fairly awkward - I could def. see it impacting an attempted bomb or jump.
I think that the blu spawn would have to be moved (given the new route on A) - This location seems like a fine spot considering how difficult last is to push along. Secondary door if necessary in back room.
Discussing Last -
For starters the lower route is quite long and once again comes out on some questionable ground (through a tiny door, easily flank-able through the walkway. I would be interested if it came out instead where the handrails are - this area has the interesting effect of being able to demo-spam the red spawn highground.
As for the left route, I'm not sure why a4 decided to make the rotation longer and more awkward, i had said previously that it concerns me that to get to the high ground close to the door it is required to cross the potential sightline from the main choke.
As I'm sure the feedback in the playtest implied, the route is now very easy for red to re-enforce, and very difficult for blu to both punish and push. If blu didn't have a strong enough presence (which is hard given the tenuous ground to work with) I think red has a very easy flank capable of wiping any setup blu has in pushing main. The solution is to make the route much more inviting, and make the doorway supportable (blu should be able to punish people committing out of their last, rather than red able to hole up. Ironically closing the window made effectively just gave the defending team cover.
Lastly, the half-cover walls on last should REALLY be replaced, they can feel unfair and unfun to fight against, I'd strongly recommend some handrail-esque object - one that bullets and soldiers can shoot through.
Excuse my sloppy drawings, just wanted to try to quickly communicate my ideas. Of course, the map is yours, and if you disagree with any of my ideas I will take no offense if you pursue your vision instead. If you wish to discuss any of the ideas - we could have a deeper back and forth or a meeting, you can contact me on discord (FlipFTW#0777)
The fight for Blu Spawn -
Starting with the start of the map, I've noticed that at times there is quite an event when it comes to pushing out of blu spawn. I would think design-wise there seems to be an intended natural progression of taking the high ground and pressuring people using the gates as cover - but I can't help but feel that that high ground route is the least intuitive - and the entrance itself can be annoying to deal with - the escalator makes the portions you exit very limited - and both are in a potential sniper sightline. The biggest changes I would consider to assist blu would be a staircase out of the close spawn door onto the high ground - making it a more intuitive route as well as giving an option for the other two doors besides funneling through exposed lowground. That aside I would suggest closing some sightlines leading directly into the doors. Areas like the cart allow splash very deep into spawn, areas like where the cart bends (defender looking between the gargoyle and the one-way) have a very deadly sightline to the upper spawn area.
Pushing First-
One of the first things I look for is a location to setup where I can cover all entrances - In general I think what makes a payload point interesting is having to rotate to defend key areas - if you can force the defenders to divert resources then make a push for a key area - that's good design, conversely, if you can cover everything from a single location - that's lacking depth.
For starters the left option for attackers is very scary the door dropping immediately into where you might expect a clump of players or the main hold means it has to be closely watched by a tanked splash class or something similar at all times - and even then that would only accomplish forcing the uber early. The only real countermeasure would be to hope you have a capable pyro to deny the uber using the height as cover. I might suggest that the corridor could be made longer so that people pushing it were exposed for a greater period of time, but for the most part it is a very powerful viable route.
Pushing main is difficult given how exposed it is, but that's to be expected for the main cart route. While possible to brute force it, its designed with a lot of favored terrain and corners for red - for a main route this seems fine.
Pushing right (attackers pov) is very difficult given how long the rotation is as well as how difficult the door the rotation leads to is to push out. As mentioned before it doesn't really serve as a functional route because it can be watched from a similar location to watching the main choke - and the size as well as height of the area means anyone who has taken the time for the long flank will likely have to cancel and endure a long rotation or suicide through the tight door.
What I might recommend is sealing the lower area and instead implementing the flank via a cross through choke/main sightline. I think this has the interesting effect of allowing the defending team to react to significant classes headed to the flank. To compensate for the increased vision the defending team has, I'd also suggest the flank exit be adjusted to significant ground. I also think this would reduce the time to poke and rotate back to push a different way, but I haven't measured out the routes and confirmed any of this.
I do think this would make the hold weaker overall, if you're concerned about A being too difficult to defend, I may suggest the left (attacking route) be made to come out on low ground - perhaps near the current placement of health/ammo. I think the angle it comes at would make it difficult for the defenders to commit deeply into without the potential of a rather easy wrap or support from choke favoring the attackers.
Transition from First to Second
I'm not really sure what the purpose of this room was:
I experienced many people mistakenly go this way when pushing last (from rolling out from the forward spawn). I think that it feels like there should be a route here (left side attackers perspective) into 2nd, or if that creates too many routes the room could probably just be removed.
As for 2nd I think that the right route (attackers POV) as well as the sightline main would make it a fairly difficult point to hold - the newest route on a4 seems to allow fast reinforcement here, but the decisive high ground makes me think holding anywhere on the platform (you would need to hold aggressively to prevent a cap) would result in a chunk of damage. It's also worth noting that the skybox over the right route (attackers pov) is very low, its possible to bump it with a single rocket jump - the transition from the 2nd point area to this ledge is fairly awkward - I could def. see it impacting an attempted bomb or jump.
I think that the blu spawn would have to be moved (given the new route on A) - This location seems like a fine spot considering how difficult last is to push along. Secondary door if necessary in back room.
For starters the lower route is quite long and once again comes out on some questionable ground (through a tiny door, easily flank-able through the walkway. I would be interested if it came out instead where the handrails are - this area has the interesting effect of being able to demo-spam the red spawn highground.
As for the left route, I'm not sure why a4 decided to make the rotation longer and more awkward, i had said previously that it concerns me that to get to the high ground close to the door it is required to cross the potential sightline from the main choke.
As I'm sure the feedback in the playtest implied, the route is now very easy for red to re-enforce, and very difficult for blu to both punish and push. If blu didn't have a strong enough presence (which is hard given the tenuous ground to work with) I think red has a very easy flank capable of wiping any setup blu has in pushing main. The solution is to make the route much more inviting, and make the doorway supportable (blu should be able to punish people committing out of their last, rather than red able to hole up. Ironically closing the window made effectively just gave the defending team cover.
Lastly, the half-cover walls on last should REALLY be replaced, they can feel unfair and unfun to fight against, I'd strongly recommend some handrail-esque object - one that bullets and soldiers can shoot through.
Excuse my sloppy drawings, just wanted to try to quickly communicate my ideas. Of course, the map is yours, and if you disagree with any of my ideas I will take no offense if you pursue your vision instead. If you wish to discuss any of the ideas - we could have a deeper back and forth or a meeting, you can contact me on discord (FlipFTW#0777)
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95
- Aug 18, 2018
- 150
- 95