Overwatch vs Team Fortress 2

Discussion in 'Games Talk' started by Crash, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    How about that click-bait?

    I feel that this video makes a lot of excellent points comparing the two games, and gave the me words to go with how I have been feeling about them for awhile. It also talks about community servers in a way very relevant to the recent update to TF2.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hj1haLcdI0


    What do you guys think?
     
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  2. sevin

    aa sevin

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    The Overwatch community is the worst I've ever seen in a video game. I've never played League of Legends, I hear that's bad, but wow it's absolutely toxic in Overwatch. I came back to TF2 a week after Overwatch's release and haven't played since. It didn't grab me like TF2 did I guess, and its shitty community didn't help. Still a very polished, balanced game that I'm sure I will play some time again, but I just haven't felt like it since it launched.
     
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  3. Diva Dan

    aa Diva Dan hello!

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    Ive played a bit of Overwatch recently and I have to say I don't see the toxicity everyone else is seeing. I have only seen a few players be incredibly salty over class choices or plays of the game, but for the most part randoms are chill and do full 76/harambe lobbies or set up huge torb crossfires. I can definitely see toxic players taking over in the higher ranks, though- I've heard nothing but negative things about the competitive matchmaking.
     
  4. worMatty

    aa worMatty Repacking Evangelist

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    Overwatch doesn't have a community in the game. It has matchmaking against millions of players. It's not possible for it to have a community. It's possible for it to have communities outside, in organisations such as Reddit, but those are self-contained communities, there isn't just one large community that encompasses all of them, just like TF2maps is its own TF2 community. You can't say 'the community' is anything without specifying which.

    My experience in OW with other players has been just like in real life: a mix of all kinds of attitudes.

    Regarding the video, I agree with its observations. The format of the games, with fewer players and shorter rounds makes it feel more like an arcade game. IMO, it wouldn't be possible to have twice the number of players and longer rounds on the existing maps, or with the current abilities of each class. This video has highlighted the remaining major distinctions between the two games, which are part of their core.
     
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  5. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

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    i like both games, i prefer some TF2 classes to their OW hero counterparts and vice versa

    this video def highlights a lot of my feelings on top of that
     
  6. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    I think the game size in Overwatch also contributes to the pace. In tf2, you are a much smaller proportion of the team, so strategies such as hanging back to build Uber, sticky-mining a single doorway, or sniping a lesser-used path are all viable options - not least because there's more enemies in maps of similar complexity, so you're more likely to run into them. In Overwatch you're a larger part of your team: you can't hang back away from the fight to do something of limited use (Junkrat camp a doorway, say) because then your team is fighting at a disadvantage.

    Overwatch also does more to reward cohesiveness (though in some ways less to promote it - see the lack of respawn waves). TF2's pushes tend to be only a few (4-5) players, or even one medic-fighter pair, whereas in Overwatch its much more common to attack with the whole team at once.
     
  7. sooshey

    aa sooshey :3c

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    I think the reason why i personally prefer overwatch is because it feels like 6s, which i always liked. The smaller team size and greater need for coordination makes me feel like i'm actually doing something.
     
  8. sevin

    aa sevin

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    OK, I guess I used the wrong word. Player base might be more applicable. In my experience, a large percentage of people I have played with are absolute assholes, more so than in any other game I have played. This is not to say the game is bad, it is very good, but it's just hard to get into when everyone is talking shit even to their teammates.
     
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    For comp fast paced is prefered, for random pubbing its not. A less skilled player will simply be outpaced. His less viable options to perform can still be a huge compensation. And this is also an aspect of teamwork that should exist. Tf2 does it very well on that part.

    Even in day of defeat you notice that its mostly newer players that spam grenades alot, where this might be effective in a short term, its often bad against better players. But even then it still delays them as they will still be trying to take a safe moment to avoid the grenade spam.

    A pub game shouldnt be fast paced.

    And stickymining a doorway or constantly spychecking is a method in which less skilled players can compensate alot with. If you have 2 decent engies that are well capable of handling spies alone, the group of 2 engies with a dedicated pyro can still perform a task of equal effect. That player might not be missing because the attacking force might just be that little bit stronger to compensate the missing player there.

    By forcing all 6 to go in a more offensive way you can trigger a much diffirent game. Its exactly the same with soccer, you seperate players based on their ideal position. Imagine soccer with 6 players, it surely will get a faster pace... but is that a good sign? With 6 players im quite sure that less skilled players are going to have a harder time to keep up.
    "Offense is the best defence"... except if you lack the skill to go offensive.

    Tf2 has the option to go for fast paced by taking 6v6, for a slightly slower pace highlander often can do well. and for the slowest pace you got 16v16 instaspawn. And this stalemate pace is exactly what is missing in overwatch, its plain deathmatch except with classes.
     
  10. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Came here to post this, discovered I wasn't needed. I did notice that someone named "Muddy" makes an appearance at 6:42. (Or rather, a disappearance.)
     
  11. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    im lonely so i like tf2
     
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  12. Hyperion

    aa Hyperion L16: Grid Member

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    I have never understood why 6v6 needs more coordination than HL or 12v12 pub
     
  13. Diva Dan

    aa Diva Dan hello!

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    Less players means each one is exponentially more valuable. Good communication will keep the more valuable people alive, so it's more important in 6's. With a 12v12, so many players means people can sort of play however they want without dramatically impacting the team, not to mention communication is difficult with 12 players.

    Also, 6's is USUALLY taken more seriously than pubs :p
     
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  14. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I guess you've never played like any other video game then??

    My experience over TF2's lifetime has been waaaaaaay worse.

    Maybe in 1/3 of OW matches one person says like 3-4 salty words, but in TF2's lifetime I've seen waaaaay more insults and horrible behaviour across many servers frequently. TF2 has problems with micspammers, russian kids saying NO KEEL, everyone calling everyone else a fag or a nigger.
    It's gross and I hate it

    The worst Overwatch gets is normally just GG EZ or "fuckin noob team" but the pacing is so different that in TF2 it persists, there's incessant votekicks, anyone mouthing off in chat just keeps at it and then other people join in. In Overwatch they say like 1-2 lines and then either quit or shut up. There's just no comparison between the way shit turns sour in TF2 than in Overwatch.
    Not to mention normally it seems like everyone says gg and wp at the end, there's the card ratings and POTG where everyone laughs about how bad the play was or says how good that final push was. It's nice, can't imagine that in TF2

    The community outside of overwatch is waaaaay better than what I've seen from TF2. The TF2 community seems divided into those that create things that are fucking dumb and awful (either intentionally because lulz memes or unintentionally because they're young and just not really practiced at making things yet) and the decent young artists making good art (oh and SFM'ers who occupy the mid-to-good range mostly) and the overwatch community is like nothing but profesh artists and cartoonists creating amazing art. There is, of course, the full range of shit to god tier stuff happening on both sides but what I see is TF2 is waaaaaaaaay skewed to the shit tier and Overwatch is waaaaaaaay skewed to the god tier.

    Plus there's stuff like this happening in OW's community: https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/..._you_for_making_ana_a_true_egyptian_blizzard/
    Which isn't the kind of stuff that ever happens in TF2's community.


    As for @Crash's linked video, I kinda agree with the do with vs meet friends, but not really very strongly. I more or less only play Overwatch with friends, yes, but they have friends, and I have friends, and we join and mingle. I've met and hung out with well over a dozen totally new people so far. It was months before I'd 'met' anyone by playing TF2 but with Overwatch sometimes I meet four people all at once, then hang out for hours. Friendships in TF2 start with a trickle, but in Overwatch it's a bit more like a fire hose.

    To further bolster the eehhh feeling of this comparison is that it's another launch+9 years vs launch+0 years comparison. Like sure, what TF2 has become is totally different from overwatch is now. but if you compare early days TF2 to early days overwatch, they're a TON more similar. and while I appreciate there's value in comparing the two games as they both are right now the fact that overwatch will continue to grow and change over its lifetime seems oft glossed over entirely. It's already had arguably more changes in the first two months than TF2 had in its first year. His entire argument about player expression seems to forget that in TF2 didn't even start until mid 2009 TWO YEARS after the game was released. TWO YEARS. It's just laughable to say Overwatch isn't interested in expression and TF2 is when TF2 had no interest in expression for two years and Overwatch already has cosmetics from day 1
     
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  15. sevin

    aa sevin

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    Wow, strange how different our experiences have been. Yeah I've had bad experiences in TF2, but usually it's only a couple people per server. And in a server with 21 other people it's not so bothersome. Overwatch is 5v5. I can't count the number of times in the opening week when I played Bastion and got POTG and pretty much everyone either told me to kill myself or uninstall. Whether or not they're kidding, it's not fun when your own teammates tell you to kill yourself over a good play that you had that helped your team succeed. And you're right, most people said ggwp at the end of the rounds, but I find that to be pretty insincere when they spent most of the game talking shit. People are absolutely ferocious with their insults too. I've read some shit that's just on a whole new level of asshole in Overwatch chat in the first week.

    That reddit thread you linked, I'm not sure what your point is there. Blizzard possibly hired a native Egyptian for Ana? OK? Isn't that to be expected?

    The TF2 community is split between creating things that are fucking awful and decent artist? You don't think that exists in Overwatch? The TF2 community has a lot more to create, modding is actually possible. You can't mod or create anything FOR Overwatch. You can just make art. So if we remove all the trash Gamebanana submissions, you probably have a pretty similar distribution. There's always going to be people making dumb shit for everything, you just probably won't see it on /r/overwatch because everything that sticks on the front page is 3000 upvotes+, so there's no room for dumb shit. I just think it's weird you'd maake the generalization that everyone who makes shit for Overwatch is professional and amazing, or at least waaaaaaaay skewed to god tier.
     
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  16. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Blizzard also has a more diffirent behaviour against such things. In tf2, no matter what you say... you dont get banned. However, even during the days of WoW being too offensive to everyone would have resulted in a ban. They have set a strict limit on what they allow and what they do not allow. Most bad language is put behind a filter which you can easily turn off.

    This sets a much more diffirent approach on how they handle such things. And in for example starcraft, no matter how bad the match was... you allways get or give a 'GG' (its an automated response when you lost).

    But that doesnt allways mean its a better community.

    Tf2 in the early days barely had problems with offensive people, the most you would face is griefers/cheaters. But as time passes some better players will remain and they simply become better. They can get anoyed at bad players and this slowly makes a game behave bad. But games that dont quickly get sequels will keep a larger player base for a longer time. If we would look at CoD, once the new version is out. a year after the community of the old game is very hostile ingame. Far worse than tf2 (and thats just after 2 years since release where tf2 is 9 years old).

    In new games people are more friendly in general. They are just as new as other players and wont blame others for being less skilled. As they know they normaly also fall under that same group (or was part of it a few months ago).

    Even the MvM community in tf2 is very diffirent. Its generaly more hostile than the remainder of tf2. Try to go on mann up with 0 tours and ask for help. You wont even get a chance in most cases and instantly get votekicked. Now try to state someone is doing something bad, you will get insulted for that, no matter if you are correct or not.

    The overwatch community is currently just too big and has too much variety to be hostile in general. But im certain it eventualy will be. Most fps games end that way. Some less than others, but that depends on systems in the game. As soon as ranking is involved it often is worse.
     
  17. puxorb

    aa puxorb L69: Emoticon

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    I think I agree with YM. Overwatch (for now) seems a lot less toxic than TF2. The worst I hear is some insult on how I did something wrong, or I'm playing as the wrong class for what needs to get done, etc. But that usually lasts for a few back and forth messages and then its done. I haven't experienced any of the constant harassment which can only be described as cyber-bullying in this game like I have in TF2.

    One thing that really surprised me was how nice the competitive community was. I made friends with a group of 5 the other day and finished all my ranked matches, hearing nothing but constructive criticism in the form of tips and ideas. So far, the competitive group has been really awesome. This surprises me most, because I hated the competitive community in TF2. Telling me which classes were "worse" than others and what weapons I should not use. Even telling me what cosmetics were the worst, or that a certain weapon is only for "tryhards". Because Overwatch designs weapons and abilities around a character, I never hear this. I only ever hear which character might be more useful in a certain situation.


    However, being that games are quick and you are rarely matched with the same people, there really is no sense of community. I loved joining the same servers in TF2 and seeing the same people every day. We had real relationships, which led to a lot of screwing around and finding inventive ways to defend an objective or flank some unsuspecting class.

    I do miss these things about TF2, but I love that Overwatch is about having a no bullshit experience. No shiny cosmetics or distracting particles, no guessing what strange weapons combo someone has, no one sitting on their high-horse judging everyone else on their selections. If someone is killed its just assumed that they have a lower skill and need to practice. There is hardly a "meta" when it comes to weapon choice.

    Edit: One thing that is completely unrelated but pisses me off though; Overwatch doesnt support 21:9 aspect ratio. They are planning on adding it but won't let us scale up the FOV to match, so I basically will be playing with the top and bottom cut off. How disappointing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2016
  18. Nuke

    Nuke L4: Comfortable Member

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    >posting TF2 vs OW video
    >not expecting a flame war

    With all seriousness, i kinda agree with video. Some concepts are same, but games differ a lot and thus, force you think differently in them and about them. That's why i, as "veteran" of TF2 would never play OW... it will become stale to me, "non-unique". Even if somebody gifted it to me...RIP somebody's 40$ if they decide.
     
  19. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    You would think, but there was great discussion about how Pharah isn't really representitive of modern Egypt and seems to be standard western "Hey ancient Egypt was AWESOME right?".
    There's also a maaaaaassssiiive problems with arab portrayal in video games. Arab gamers are very frustrated that their language is basically treated like a font replacement. Sometimes it goes left to right, rarely is it joined up, usually it's badly translated. This is such a serious issue even massive budget films like Captain America can't get it right >>> https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/729178787603202048
    So it's a maaaasssive deal when something gets it right. Under/misrepresented minorities get excited when their culture is done justice. and rightfully so!

    As I said, both sides have a full spectrum of quality. I actually already discounted the modding content people make. I'm also trying to cast my mind back to the days before TF2 became F2P. What I've seen is 2D art to 2D art comparison seems to have TF2 massively skewed towards low quality, OW massively skewed towards high quality.

    There's no war here, unless you brought it with you
    [​IMG]

    Oooohhh god I forgot how much I hate that. I haven't seen it once in Overwatch
     
  20. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

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    The way fanart is shared has changed a lot between the releases of the two games. It's much easier to find high quality work today