Overpass

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Stink Horse, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Road Elevation Developments and the Bridge Logistics Union are having a spat over a critical development location and the results are down right explosive!

    Koth_Overpass is a fairly vertical map with an armored point to contest over, but don't worry about the point being too much of a hard point. Every minute thirty seconds the Red and Blu teams send in a payload cart and detonate it, effectively scouring the location of defenders and giving the opposing team a chance to move in. Sometimes the bomb is even the defending team's color thanks to poor communication!
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2010
  2. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    looookin' good mr. stink horse. honestly, sightlines really aren't that huge of a deal as long as their are plenty of options to NOT go into the sniperline, or an easy way to counter it. people make too big of deal about sightlines (especially here)
     
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  3. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    I won't mention what I already said when I ran through it a few weeks ago, but..

    It still feels really proppy, with all the mismatched walkways. But your middle is a good change from this, with some interesting geometry.

    P.S. WHY WOULD THE POINT EXPLODE AFTER BEING CAPTURED?!
     
  4. Seba

    aa Seba DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD

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    Why not? :D
     
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  5. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    Because it's not payload and there's no bomb anywhere, also it doesn't make sense that people standing around a point will cause it to blow up.
     
  6. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Actually the payload bombs were what I spent the last two weeks pounding nails through my junk to get working. A bomb drives in once every minute and thirty seconds with about six or seven seconds of warning before hand. It's completely scripted, players don't have to push anything. If it ends up not very fun in practice it can come out.
     
  7. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    Then make the bomb come in after the match is won, killing anyone on the track and exploding anyone near the middle.
     
  8. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    I dont quite think you're getting the point of the bomb. It's like the ghost in Koth_Harvest_Event. It's a destabilizing element. It can potentially break stalemates, turn matches around, and is intended to be a unique element.
     
  9. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    You didn't say that before! D:

    I guess a giant speeding train is scarier than a little ghost.
     
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  10. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Well it's not a full sized train either, it's just a payload cart, but it will f you up if you're caught in front of it. It could become a train though, if the current implementation doesn't test well on the servers. I intend to be very fluid with the development of the map. If an idea seems good, it goes in. If it doesn't test well, it comes out. I'm not wed to anything and with enough quality input I think it could be a really fun map to play.

    As for using a train instead of a bomb, the net effect would be everything in a straight line from it's entry would be in danger. Currently the half of the map the bomb enters from is threatened, and then everything standing on the point itself and a short distance around will die when it detonates. I'm more inclined to use the bomb because it encourages player to completely GTFO the point, rather than ducking away or rocket jumping through the roof.
     
  11. royalkiller

    royalkiller L1: Registered

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    It looks pretty well, but might it not be a little big 4 koth?
     
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  12. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Gonna test it tonight and find out. I don't think it's any bigger than Harvest, but we'll see. I've got a good idea of where to shift the spawn room if that's a problem for people.
     
  13. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

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    Very nice work here.

    I can't think of anything that hasn't already been said by my boys at the cafe.

    Very solid gameplay, my friend. I love the new mechanic, but it needs to be move obvious.
     
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  14. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Koth_OverpassA1 Test Results 1:
    Overall the feedback was that the map is fun to play. Snipers amazingly dont rule the map with iron cross hairs so that's good. Also the bomb while a continual surprise to just about everyone, performed it's function beautifully. Every time it detonated people on the point ran or died and control of it was suddenly uncertain. Suggested concerns and observations follow.

    Primary
    Bomb Should Destroy Buildings - Above everything else the bomb needs to clear out the buildings on the point. We had an engy who was pretty good a sentry jumping make this need abundantly clear when he had a level three fortress set up on the cp shack's roof. I don't think we need to stop engineers from building inside the point shack just yet, but their crap needs to be cleared when the bomb comes through...

    Secondary
    Better Bomb Warning - The three warning sirens and the flashing lights inside the point just don't seem to be enough. People in the point are too focused on looking out and the people heading in just don't have eyes for anything other than an enemy. I'm going to try variations on the following to help improve this:
    • Louder Sirens - Right now the sirens are drowned out over the sound of combat. Either they need to be broad-casted all over the level or they need to be increased in volume locally by a large amount.
    • Different Sirens - Currently the sirens are the aggressive warning klaxon that sounds when a bomb is nearing a final point on a payload map. This seems like a good idea because it's a scary sound that heralds a huge explosion, but in practice it made the players excited They associate the sound with a victory close at hand, rather than their imminent death. Go figure. Anyway it means I need a different siren, possibly even the incoming train noise unless someone has a better idea. Maybe the mission start siren...
    • The Announcer - Helen has plenty of different ways to say "A bomb is nearing the checkpoint". I could have her outright TELL people they'd better move.
    • More Flashing Lights - The light's inside the point should be moved outside in both cases. A flashing light hanging from the overhang above the bomb entry point could work and lights ringing the entrance to the point could also help. And screw the carefully set up light countdown timer. They just need to flash, like a shit ton.
    • Longer Warning - The warning for the bomb is currently around seven seconds long. That gives players around three warning sirens. I'm beginning to think they need at least ten seconds warning if not a second or two more, just to be fair. I'll bump that up for the time being but might dial it back down once the rest of the warnings are in place. We'll see.

    Tertiary
    Remove Window Fall Damage - Right now players run forward out the spawn and up the stairs in the next building. Once there they feel an almost supernatural urge to defenestrate themselves in their rush to the point. Almost everyone was butt hungry for a way to jump out without taking damage, so I'm likely going to add in some sort of soft landing structure just below, like an angled roof. There was one there a while back but it was removed because it was possible to see the enemy spawn door from it and an enterprising sniper could potentially make someone's life a living hell as a result. Proceed with caution here.

    Railway Overlook - A good suggestion came to add an overlook reachable by scouts and other jumpers into the hanging overlook above the cart path. This seems easily doable, but in an age of sentry jumping I'm really nervous about these locations being made into an engineer hard point. What are the rules for nobuild? When it is appropriate to use it and when it is blatant heavy handing on the part of the designer who is unwilling to come up with an elegant solution? I'll likely add it in to start but the second it proves a problem it's coming right back out.

    Open Area Around Point - While feedback on the map is generally good and no one even mentioned this, I feel the area immediately surrounding the point could use a little more breathing room. Right now it's almost as tight as a hallway and that just doesn't feel right for a location open to the sky. This could have a really adverse effect on sight lines but I think I'm going to widen the area by one and a half to a full double and see how that affects things. That'll break the scout's quick route onto the top of the point but maybe I can add a ramp from the lower awning.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2010
  15. Grim Tuesday

    aa Grim Tuesday

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    Make a bomb that moves inexerobaly towards the point at all times, and explodes once it reaches the middle. Then it starts again from the other teams side.
     
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  16. Fireman

    Fireman L4: Comfortable Member

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    ^ what grim said, or some other type of advance warning that the point needs to be steered clear of. For first timers it was kind of a mass of WTF JUST HAPPENED I'M DEAD reactions.
     
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  17. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Koth_OverpassA1 Test Results 2:
    Had more people in the map for this test. Results mirror the first test but there was a lot more dissatisfaction with the bomb in it's current implementation. That just makes the need to get the warnings boosted up all the more imperative. There was also a lot of talk about the range of the bomb and just how much space the hurt entity takes up when it blows. I think focusing it to the areas where the blast is directly visible, such as inside the point, the roof, the decks, and directly below the point would help make that feel better, rather than going with the current "large box" solution.

    Personal Observation: The map still feels tighter at ground level than I'd like and my mind is made up at this point to at least try making the area around the point wider. I'll start by doubling the space and then will pull it back from there as I get a feel for it in further tests. My hope is this will make the area feel more open, but wont necessarily empower snipers anymore than they already are.

    Primary
    Bomb Should Destroy Buildings - This is in progress. Should hopefully be tested privately soon. Thanks for the pointers Booj and Supersandvich!

    Better Bomb Warning - I've gotten a lot of feedback on the speed of the bomb being too much. I'm going to slow it down, but not anymore than half of what it's at right now. It still needs to be a threat to players who are on the rail ramps just as much as it is to people on the point itself.
    • Louder Sirens - I've got these blaring across the level but they're still really quiet. I'll try boosting their overall volume next and see how it works out.
    • Different Sirens - Done. I changed these guys over to Well train bell. People seem to see that sound as a direct threat rather than the Payload siren indicating a victory close at hand. Still I'll never forget telling people a bomb was coming and watching them cluster up closer on the point before going up like a dry christmas tree. Comedy gold.
    • The Announcer - I'm torn on this one. I think Helen calling out a bomb incoming would be perfect, but not everyone seems to love her three-pack-a-day siren song as much as I do. I'll probably implement this for the next alpha and see how it goes.
    • Longer Warning - Working on it. This is going to be a careful balance of the bomb's speed, the length of it's track and the obviousness of the bomb warning. I'll probably be futzing with this until the day I dump the project in favor of mapping for Alien Swarm.
    • Slower Bomb - See above.

    Secondary
    Open Area Around Point - During this evening's test I found myself desperately trying to jump up a 64u ledge to escape Penguin's flamethrower. It's a totally doable crouch jump but I'm just not believing it should be a crouch jump anymore. It's going to be reduced to a 32 or a 16. Something easily hop-able.

    The only part of this rather big change that worries me is how the cargo container route down from the overpass is going to connect to the point. Should it be two wooden bridges? Should I add more cargo containers? Need to think on this and test some distances. This is also going to make the roof completely inaccessible to scouts unless I throw in a wooden plank or two. Do I want scouts up there? I'm already thinking of giving them a little overlook room... I'm uncertain...

    Tertiary
    Remove Window Fall Damage - Still need to do this. I recognize the need for it more than ever. The original concern of being able to snipe into the enemy spawn room from a sloped roof here will go away when the map spaces out I believe.

    Railway Overlook - Still debating this one. It's probably going to happen at this point. But again, if it doesn't work it's coming right out.

    Thanks again for the feedback everyone!
     
  18. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Really snazzy brush work there, I really like the layout so far.
     
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  19. Stink Horse

    Stink Horse L2: Junior Member

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    Koth_OverpassA2 Test Results 1:
    Alpha 2 got its inaugural test tonight and it seemed to go over well. The center point has been widened, old locations renovated and a new sluice has been added under the point. Feedback, as last time was favorable, though people seemed to have a less clear idea of what could be altered to improve it. I heard some distinct requests for more health, though I'll need to see more play tests before I decide to start throwing the stuff around.

    Personal observation: Now that Helen is calling out that the bomb is coming (which is now slower and more prominently announced) very few people are actually caught in the blast. I'm thinking of cutting thirty seconds off the bomb clock to keep things interesting. Right now it seems like you wait forever to die at the hands of a nameless map entity. Cruelty aside it does feel like that could be sped up. Maybe not thirty seconds, but then testing will help prove that out...

    Primary
    Bomb Should Destroy Buildings - This is STILL in progress. I thought I had this licked but apparently not. Maybe in A3...

    Secondary
    Water In the Sluice - The second someone saw the Sluice they cried out that it needed water. I agree whole heartily. I need to figure out what was causing the water=nodraw bug I was encountering...

    Tertiary
    Scale The Map Down a Bit - Now that I spent a week scaling up the map I'm thinking about scaling it back down. I'm not entirely sure I should without some more feedback but there were moments that felt just a little... too large. Areas like the side ramp leading from ground level up to the point felt a bit too distant and the sluice is a frigging canyon. If I don't figure out how to add water I'll need to fill it with junk.

    Thanks again for the feedback everyone!
     
  20. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

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    There's a good chance I can solve both of those problems.
     
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