New kind of reverse MvM?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by VintageEpicFail, Jan 11, 2015.

  1. VintageEpicFail

    VintageEpicFail L1: Registered

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    So I had an idea for a game mode where the players need to plant the bomb in the robot factory.
    I mentioned this to a few friends, so I will clarify, the RED players plant the bomb at the MvM robot factory. I do not mean the players play as the robots. You are still 1 of the 9 classes

    It could be something like a dual objective, where you need to survive, kill the robots and maybe push a payload cart?

    Feel free to leave your thoughts :)
     
  2. VintageEpicFail

    VintageEpicFail L1: Registered

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    Either that or just a normal MvM and then every time you beat a wave the cart gets closer to the robot factory
     
  3. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    The biggest problem that you have to take into consideration is that players are extremely mobile compared to robots. Normal mvm works because the bots have to do a slow linear push into your territory, a push that has the bomb as its epicenter. It's easy for players to have a broad overview of what's going on because of it.

    If you want to reverse the roles, several unwanted things suddenly become very real problems. Player will, with their mobility and superior intelligence, be able to push into territory with extreme ease regardless of the resistance they meet. If you went with a payload cart, which would indeed make sure there was a easily recognizable progression through the mission, you'd have to limit the players in their movement. Something that could have a negative impact on how attractive the mission is to players.

    Normally, players have to defend territory, which means that they'll lose ground if they retreat to recover. To reverse the roles, the robots would have to reclaim territory if the players pull out of battle, or the players will be able to retreat without penalty all they want. This could probably be partially countered by giving robots certain bonuses and healing when they live long or survive a lot of damage, etc. I am not sure how you'd accomplish this tho. The bots would also need a lot of entity stuff about to determine which areas they should try to defend, since bots have no concept of strategy. In normal mvm, it's easy for them since they have to follow a path while killing anything that opposes them. In a reversed situation, however, you would need a very intricately ai guiding system to make all the tactical choices. I am not certain how you'd do that either (altho i'm relatively certain this one is actually possible).

    I think the best way to make an offense-based mvm map would be to have it revolve around some sort of boss entity. A mvm version of this map basically.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2015
  4. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    In offensive mvm they have to push all the time. And its possible to make bots focus on the CP's. The enemy on that is a timer. You could easily put in giant medics purely to defend the control point. Where in mvm the capture progress isnt blocked for bots, for players you can still do that.
    This defense is the objective to break. Mvm technicaly its fine as its similar to regaining ground in the endurance missions.
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=22184

    Here is the technical part where i already mentioned its possible.

    You should just use a system like i did in mvm_intercept. give 2 objectives to bots. 1 being the point to reclaim, and 1 being the point to defend. More isnt needed. The last group could be mobber bots that just attack players randomly.

    1 thing to note though, you cant use a normal wave schedule in such games. As you normaly should want to have 5 waves containing the battles instead of just 1. So the map should get an option to reset and advance a wave.

    This would require 1 bot that is stuck and dies on a victory. The rest should all be support (unless you want a bossfight after winning the round where the boss tries to capture all points back).

    So its not impossible but requires a good knowledge of the mvm entity work.
     
  5. puxorb

    aa puxorb L69: Emoticon

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    I know there is a nav_avoid entity to get bots to avoid a certain area, but is there one to draw them to a certain spot?

    I could imagine a payload map working since there is a hint entity for robot engineers to build sentries in a certain spot, and one for snipers, but if you could actually program each wave to stand and defend near something (like a building or a ledge overlooking the payload track) then this idea could certainly work.





    Actually one thing that comes to mind is some custom gamemodes like cp_snowplow or a sort of payload/cp combo. Whenever you try to generate a nav mesh for these maps the bots automatically stand near the func_tracktrain even if it isn't the main objective. You could perhaps use it to your advantage, setting up multiple path_tracks in areas and making the payload cart invisible. Once you capture a point when you move your payload cart, the invisible one can be told to teleport to the next path_track and then the bots will flow to that spot and stand there, "defending" it in a way.

    Its a bit far-fetched but it could work.

    EDIT: Although I guess they may also try to stand near your func_tracktrain as well, completely ruining this idea.
     
  6. radarhead

    aa radarhead Hands out ratings like cheap cigars

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    Would it be possible to do a sort of Left4Dead style gamemode with robots?
     
  7. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    its the prerequisite entity.

    You give it a target and instead of going to the pit they will first go to that entity. This mimics the capture behaviour they have on mannhattan. Without that entity they would still go for the pit even if they dont have the bomb. This entity obviously can be 'abused' to get a defensive behaviour by simply not letting them leave the base. You can even make them patrol an area.

    To keep them defending you just ensure they keep touching that entity and never walk outside of it. This gives them the permanent task to stay on that point.

    Who knows you could even make the target parented with the cart and let them try to take that point.

    Prerequisites are powerfull, its how mvm_intercept got its AB/C (gravelpit) system.