Need Advice on my Hybrid Game Mode! (dual PL/PL-CP)

[kinggambit]

I want to create a tf2 map that involves one of the following:
1. Multiple payload carts
2. A payload map with cp's that affect the cart (i.e. +/- 1 person on the cart, uphill/downhill/neutral effect, better spawn)
3. Multiple payload carts with cp's that affect both tracks.

I was hoping I could get some feedback and advice on which game mode I should structure.

I have a rough layout of my map already but I need to determine my game mode first before I can create a block out of my level. Essentially, Blu (left) is attacking Red's fortress (right) but the main bridge connecting them is unavailable until the cp's below are capped (whether by payload cart or cp)

Here is an imgur album link to a couple more rough sketches with more info if you're interested:
http://imgur.com/a/sZcTS#QvUqBxh


Sorry for the poor sketches! I am still learning.

 

[Fish 2.0]

I think try it, however the actual goal needs to be extremely structured and clear. I don't think you should ever have more than one goal for a team at any given time, and when that goal changes it needs to be clear what the next goal is.

Having a CP goal to effect the PL goal would be confusing to the players. How would they track the active buffs on the payload? Would it by a cart not affected by players, but rather more of a measure of the teams control of control points? These things need to be extremely clear.

More than one cart would confuse the hell out of people. If you were going to do something I would say a modified version of the second idea. Have it so capturing control points moved the cart forward but losing the control point moved it back. When it reached a point along the track the team needs to move forward and capture that point to keep it moving. Something like that. Make it clear that the cart is not affected by players, but make sure the cart does have relevance to the game play of the map and not just an item moving from A to B.

EDIT: Also sketches are cool, helps to visualize a map/setting

 

[Pocket]

The problem with your multiple cart idea is that I can almost guarantee the HUD won't support it. Unless you can somehow force the two-card HUD from PLR to support two carts with the same team affiliation.

One thing that did come to mind when I saw your diagram, though, was the notion of a three-stage map where all three stages take place in the same complex playable space. In fact, depending on how the HUD setups work, it might not even need to end a "stage" with humiliation and spawn resets between carts in order to replace the HUD track after the first two. I'm not sure. You'll have to ask someone who knows a lot about how HUD entities work.

 

[kinggambit]

I think try it, however the actual goal needs to be extremely structured and clear. I don't think you should ever have more than one goal for a team at any given time, and when that goal changes it needs to be clear what the next goal is.

Having a CP goal to effect the PL goal would be confusing to the players. How would they track the active buffs on the payload? Would it by a cart not affected by players, but rather more of a measure of the teams control of control points? These things need to be extremely clear.

Ya, i agree. I think at the very least everything should be sequential. If you look at gravel pit and steel, many players don't know what to do or where to go.

I was thinking for CP's , it would have be more intuitive and direct like you said (i.e. The payload cart can't cross a bridge unless a CP at a power station next to it and a second payload cart won't appear until the first one finishes capping its respective terminal cp).

More than one cart would confuse the hell out of people. If you were going to do something I would say a modified version of the second idea. Have it so capturing control points moved the cart forward but losing the control point moved it back. When it reached a point along the track the team needs to move forward and capture that point to keep it moving. Something like that. Make it clear that the cart is not affected by players, but make sure the cart does have relevance to the game play of the map and not just an item moving from A to B.

I really like that idea! Like having the cart move into a building, maybe with fences and windows around it so players could see where to take it.

I was thinking I might divide the map into 2 sections: the first takes place in that sewer/industrial/peasant area under and around the main bridge, the second/last phase would be inside the fortress. Here is a refined layout:

Area 1

Area 2

(a bit plain but its only place holders)

The problem with your multiple cart idea is that I can almost guarantee the HUD won't support it. Unless you can somehow force the two-card HUD from PLR to support two carts with the same team affiliation.

One thing that did come to mind when I saw your diagram, though, was the notion of a three-stage map where all three stages take place in the same complex playable space. In fact, depending on how the HUD setups work, it might not even need to end a "stage" with humiliation and spawn resets between carts in order to replace the HUD track after the first two. I'm not sure. You'll have to ask someone who knows a lot about how HUD entities work.

Yeah, that was one of my main worries with the idea from the start. I'm hoping if I could at least get the ball rolling then the community (and maybe even Valve) could help me with the level design and entties/scripts (If i recall, Valve actually stepped in and helped a few custom map creators into publishing them as official TF2 maps).

 

[henke37]

Where were you when we had the dynamic payload contest?

But I can only repeat what the others have said: players are dumb. You don't have time to teach them something new. Keep it painfully obvious.

 

[Fish 2.0]

Where were you when we had the dynamic payload contest?

But I can only repeat what the others have said: players are dumb. You don't have time to teach them something new. Keep it painfully obvious.

I'm actually sure the IQ of tf2 players is a little bit below the rest

 

[kinggambit]

I'm actually sure the IQ of tf2 players is a little bit below the rest

I can testify to that unfortunately from personal experience playing tf2...

why won't the opponent die??? (oh... they're on my team...)

Thanks again for the feedback; I'll update this thread once I can get a somewhat working pl alpha map blocked out.