Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    Jon - A simple MvM map based on Gorge's Design

    Just your regular average MvM map. Nothing special. Yep, nothing special, nothing special.

    ...

    This is going to be an exact copy of the download description though. Just, look at the download description.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
  2. Nicky

    aa Nicky Lets try something new!

    Messages:
    912
    Positive Ratings:
    1,699
    There's already a map named Pump Station. While it is a different game mode, so it won't cause file name issues, it may cause confusion having two maps named the same thing. I advise changing the name of the map.
     
  3. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
  4. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
  5. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

    Messages:
    1,264
    Positive Ratings:
    794
    There is a few major (And some minor) flaws for mvm i can already identify:
    • Long pathways are very easy to stall, the heavy can easily gather enough rage to permanently push them back. The medic shield amplifies this making the map regardless of enemy type very easy.
    • There is little room for navigation. Many maps feature a raised center which often is a popular spot for a teleport and for demoman that primarily focus on sticky traps (rather than going winbombing).
    • Many areas are very flat, this isnt just a problem in mvm but in many maps. it does not allow any rocket jumping advantages and makes the enemy able to hit the scout by hitting a ceiling with a rocket while they are jumping over enemies.
    • There is no spot that gives a clear overview to the players on how the map flow is. This doesnt have to be a single spot, in many mvm maps this is seperated in like 6 spots. But in your example you only see single straight paths. An mvm map should be very clear on its flow and turns should be easily identified.
    • Water: be very carefull with water, bots can behave very unpredictable in water and might actualy be unable to walk outside of it (dont rely on their jumping - they fail very often at that).
    • Everything looks the same, this again makes it very hard to follow the flow of paths by just screenshots and requires the overview, good maps dont need this or only have this at some limited spots (which can then be easily guessed due to 2 screenshots both having such paths - which most likely means they are connected). Try to add more variation and have key details at corners which simply identify the corner
    • The floor is nearly entirely flat. Height diffirences are mainly required to prevent a sniper from constantly making headshots, even slight variations like a dirt floor can matter a lot. And in most cases the ideal sniper path gets blocked off or is put on a slightly raised platform.
    • No flanks means classes that rely on flanking get a hard time to get back into position. These are mainly a scout, pyro, spy and demoknight.
    • Not actualy a problem, but more a question: Does your map feature tanks? of so: make sure the tank can be navigated arround so players dont get squashed. And if it lacks it, did you compensate the lack of a tank by making other parts difficult. Tanks are usualy used to weaken a heavy and as compensation you normaly would adjust the map so a heavy simply cant guard the entire path. In many cases you actualy want the map to still be very hard to beat with 2 heavies (although without any new content from valve this is nearly impossible to manage for an advanced difficulty mode).
    • Do you have multiple paths? or is it just a single path? If its a single path, does it contain capture areas and secondary spawns? If neither, your map would become boring very fast due to no variety or dynamic system. Random paths and capture systems can alter the map midgame depending on the playstyle (and quality) of the team. A lost point forces adjustment.
    • Can the medic shield cover the whole path: You just enforced a medic in the meta of your map. If the medic is enforced by the map its very bad (its one of the worst offenders balance wise). Once the medic shield is considered overpowered you can deadlock the map using just 2 medics which provide a permanent shield.
    There is also a koth_intercept and mvm_intercept that both are entirely diffirent. This doesnt always have to be a problem. And especialy with very outdated maps that never went rc or final, the naming conflict should not hinder. If the map you are referring to https://tf2maps.net/threads/pumping-station.6243/ i dont think people will quickly get confused. The map is barely known outside of tf2m. In fact: https://tf2maps.net/threads/pumping-station.18838/ there already was an earlier attempt.

    The only moments where it would be a problem is when 2 maps are both in late beta/rc/final state and one has been started to show up more widely on servers. Since in such situation you could realy confuse them

    And to make it even worse, valve already has been an offender on this one with mvm_mannhattan: https://tf2maps.net/threads/mannhattan.20763/
     
  6. SmallBiscuit

    SmallBiscuit L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    464
    Positive Ratings:
    247
    the map that nick is referring to is my only map that I have made, and it is very new to the community, and still being heavily worked on... the map is cp_pumpstation, and it is a 5cp map that originated as a ctf map... so, there is a naming conflict to worry about...
     
  7. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

    Messages:
    2,395
    Positive Ratings:
    4,248
    [​IMG]

    Looks neat, but I fear it might be somewhat cramped for an MvM map. They need to be open to an extent so that the robot waves are spread out and can't be easily pinned down.
     
  8. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    Ok, so I'll try to raise the ceiling on tight areas. Will that help?

    I tested it and bots can get out of water. However, though, they sometimes magically teleport out of them, which is really problematic. And Valve didn't make a swimming animation for robots, except for the Engineer bot.

    So... put random displacements like the dirt in mvm_mannhattan?

    Make more rooms? So that they can hide and flank? Or basically just make something to hide on like big props?

    Yes, it has. But not in the current missions yet(Except one, which shouldn't really count as a mission).
    Yes, it has 2 paths, they are mostly different, just like mvm_rottenburg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

    Messages:
    1,264
    Positive Ratings:
    794
    Generaly the flank and main path are both in the same room/area. Look specificly at mannhattan and rottenburg on where they put the raised sections, and side paths. A flank doesnt always mean a completely alternative path.
    To allow such raised area that can feature as a flank, the room generaly needs to be larger in width and height and often contains some cover aswel. In most mvm maps the roof is about 1024 HU above the players and only small sections go below that. Which is why you rarely see narrow indoor sections (but still, all valve maps do have these sections, but only short ones). The roof can provide a hinder, but at the same time also add variation.
    This is realy the part that takes most time in mvm making. The area itself must play ideal before missions even come into play.
    Its not always displacements. Sure, they are the easiest to perform. But if you look at mannhattan spawn, you notice the first drop exit is 128 units lower and doesnt smoothly align to the ideal sniper spots. Same for rottenburg and mannworks. Older maps actualy do have this smooth view, but at the same time its hindered due to being at ground level.
    For indoor sections small piles of rubble, some gap in the floor etc can give just enough variation. There is no need to make the entire floor a displacement. As long as key sections are taken care of. The closer to a sniper, the higher the risk anyway. and here comes the point where the risk becomes too high, this is why rottenburg is one of the harder maps to snipe on yet coaltown and decoy are easy (since they have relatively safe spots for a sniper with a quite flat ground for bots to walk on).

    Displacements have a 2nd effect: a better nav. More smaller squares works better than just a few large ones. The AI can sometimes act dumb. Flat grounds have 1 advantage: splash damage doesnt go through the shield and can in some cases make a sniper area which is considered risky a better option.

    There is many factors and usualy it requires playtesting. but its a must to think about it, you cant decide these things in late beta anymore. Its often too late. Mannhattan already has such bump of rubble between 1st and 2nd capture which was clearly ment to block sniper vision.

    Its always good to look at existing mvm maps and try to figure out the fun parts, and why they are fun. At the same time, if you know flaws in those maps. you can check for those in your own.
     
  10. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  11. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    -Fixed Navigation
    -Added a second pit
    -Added custom texture file to the .zip download. Instructions are also updated.
    -Added an early version of advanced2
    -And a bunch of other minor stuffs, too minor to be said here.


    Also, please report me if you find any bugs in the map, or if you think a(the) mission(s) is(are) unbalanced

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    Please note that the screenshots are not updated(yet!), So that the pictures might Mislead.

    -Updated advanced2
    -Placed a snow displacement to block the Sniper's view
    -Added a high ground in the second path
    -Bug fixes...?
    -Also changed the method of installation Just copy it in Steam/steamapps/Team Fortress 2 and merge all folders.

    Also, since I currently have problems uploading stuff to TF2maps.net, You will have to download it via External Site for a while.

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
  13. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
  14. ITstumbler

    ITstumbler L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    64
    Positive Ratings:
    21
    Probably the last Alpha version(Beta will have NO bugs at all)...
    Changes Include:

    -Fixed a case where the bomb will get stuck.
    -Fixed some other bugs
    -Some mission balancing
    -Added mission: expert

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.