Let's Fix the Scout! How to Improve the Scout Update in 3 Payments

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Lancey, Apr 5, 2010.

  1. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    Yo listen up. Nobody likes the scout update. It's got holes and problems here and there and really needs a fixer-upper, you know? Well just wait, cause there's more. We got a whole line up of proposals that'll fix up your scout updates like they were the best thing ever to land in your consumer's hands.

    Bonk! Classic
    Alright, everyone hates the new formula but we got the real stuff all the way from HQ. Recanned for your pleasure, new Bonk! Classic is a blast from the past, chock full of all kinds of stuff like radiation, and if you can get superpowers from radiation it's gotta be good for you.

    Bonk! Classic has a cool mixture that'll be sure to give you a 50% speed boost, cancellin' out any pesky Nataschas you might be runnin' through, while also reducing knockback a full 75%. No more sentries knockin' you outta the park! Bonk's also now made with ginseng which is like super sugar but good for you, so you only slow down for about 3 seconds. Word of warning: Bonk! Classic's super old new formula's not up to FDA code, so you're gonna be volatile. If your body ever stops pumpin' the necessary 250 liters of blood per minute through your bladder it'll detonate, splatterin' all the nearby baddies with urine.

    Bonk! Classic still suffers from replacin' your pistol, and you'll also be unable to use it with the intel or while cappin' points, so you're still down a little.

    Force-a-(Better)-Nature
    The FaN sucks. Like, big time here. I mean, I could do better with both my eyes removed and no arms. Look at it, it doesn't work. Who thought this was a good idea? I didn't. Look we got some ideas that'll fix this puppy.

    First off, the FaN's got this tendency to deal way too much knockback. The FaN's gotta deal like 50% of the knockback it deals now, but 200% to targets that are in the air. Once a guy's up he's toast, so keep your FaN reloaded to hit 'em with a one two punch. You also got that damage problem. The FaN should deal 50% damage to all enemies, meanin' that you ain't gonna kill nobody in two hits, and it doesn't deal random criticals. But if you really wanna be dangerous, it deals minicrits to targets that are in the air, so again the one two punch is gonna hurt.

    Still got the ammo reduction and extra jump height, nothin' wrong with it!

    The Slowman
    Now we got the sandman. Don't tell me you never got hit by one of those flyin' balls just outta nowhere. Now the sandman's pretty nerfed now, but it really needs some fixes.

    No one ever gets a stun with the sandman anymore. Therefore, you gotta be able to stun people from less distance. Still long range, but you won't deal any extra damage anyway so nobody's hurt with it. Part two: listen up, you need'ta give up somethin', right? How bout a speed reduction with it out. You're probably gonna hate melee fights a lot more now, but you've got the ability to stun anyone who tries to get that close, right?

    Keep the health loss and stuff otherwise.

    So what'cha got? Any input goin' on in here?
     
  2. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,769
    Positive Ratings:
    1,517
    the sandman is as good as its gonna get, bad idea from the start.
    I'm actually ok with bonk, and your suggestions are pretty bad.
    Give it:
    1. Drinking while running/in the air
    2. Take away the trail effect and just have the miss effect so you can fool enemies
    3. Block captures like ubers

    The FaN is fine, but i do like your suggestion w/ the knockback. it is so annoying to only do ~150 damage because of that knockback. don't do anything to the damage.


    I would actually like a pistol with 100% accuracy, only does 8 damage, but with no damage falloff. It gets boring when you only have 1 decent gun....
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2010
  3. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    The FaN is the most broken of the lot. I'd like to put the little bastard in a sack and toss the sack in a river and hurl the river into space, but I do like filling out requis- I mean ideas for fixes. It's far too effective even without the knockback, so concentrating on making players use its own strong points will prevent them from just running in with an instant kill.

    I think that just removing the trail effect on Bonk! keeps it as situational as ever, whereas I'm trying to add more use to it, such as being able to distract open sentries without flying away, or surprising some unsuspecting baddies.

    The sandman, I feel, is as good as it's gonna get. Hell, it'd be fun if it never stunned. It's just rewarding to leave your opponents staggered for a few seconds. I'd say other than a full stun, longer disarmament would work well.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  4. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

    Messages:
    1,029
    Positive Ratings:
    640
    One decent gun? Pistol is the shit!
     
  5. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,769
    Positive Ratings:
    1,517
    I like your FaN knockback suggestion. I don't think it is too too bad, I use it occasionally for utility and annoyingness.

    Removing the trail effect would be very valuable. people wouldn't just ignore you, the would have to shoot you. a lot of people agree with that. and for killing bad demos and soldiers [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEaaqBTZr7Y"]YouTube- Guide to Bonk Atomic Punch[/ame] - great vid.

    Either longer times or shorter cooldown for sandman. and easier ball pickup...

    @okrag: not decent, but effective. hell, just make it do that 8 damage it does at range but with 50% more accuracy. Maybe 50% less clip size if 100% accurate....
     
  6. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

    Messages:
    1,992
    Positive Ratings:
    1,233
    Scoot needs a pair of cleats that speed him by 10%, let him resist knockback while on his feet and let him goomba stop people.

    replaces the pistol.
     
  7. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

    Messages:
    1,029
    Positive Ratings:
    640
    Pistol is great for picking off enemies at long range and finishing off enemies when your Scootergun is out of ammo. Bonk! lets you get in close to those far away enemies and allows you to reload your Scootergun without losing the health advantage. What they need to do is lower the time it takes to drink Bonk! as well as allow you to drink it in the air and remove the speed penalty.
     
  8. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,769
    Positive Ratings:
    1,517
    the speed penalty has to stay...you can avoid it by zigzagging also...
    Have it give you overheal afterwards to like 165. It would be a change of pace from the fast, but squishy scout, to a slow, but strong scout...
     
  9. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

    Messages:
    698
    Positive Ratings:
    273
    How to fix the scout in 3 steps: 1. remove sandman, 2. remove bonk, 3. remove FAN
     
  10. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,557
    Playing scout's just not the same without conc grenades.
     
  11. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

    Messages:
    4,479
    Positive Ratings:
    2,211
    I'd go for this. It's already called an energy drink, and what good is an energy drink that doesn't make you faster? I'm not sure I like the full removal of damage blocking, though; it doesn't seem like the other stuff would make much difference when facing a full-grown sentry if it can still hit you.

    Honestly, the damage reduction alone — and it need not be a full 50% either — is probably enough to redeem the FaN. I'd even let them reverse those nerfs they've been applying to the knockback. The knockback was what made it fun. Said knockback guaranteeing a second hit was what made it overpowered. The guaranteed second hit was clearly intentional, since they made it shoot double in the first place, but since two shots from a scattergun = instant death most of the time, it was overkill.

    The problem with the Sandman in particular reducing speed is, being able to run up to a stunned enemy and kill them before they come to was the best reason for the Scout in particular having this weapon. You reduce his speed, he can't do that anymore. I would prefer the weapon itself be weaker; it already feels weaker with its unsasisfying "paff" sound when it hits someone, so why not tap into that? Eliminating crits and reducing swing speed by 25% (since it's a heavier bat) should do it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2010
  12. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Positive Ratings:
    131
    Am i on my own here by saying that i actually kind-a enjoyed the scout update, sure it had it's flaws but you don't really want to make the scout too over-powered. You can kill most enemies with a close range F.A.N anyway.
     
  13. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

    Messages:
    1,029
    Positive Ratings:
    640
    Then he would just be a shotgun heavy with nearly half health.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  14. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    421
    Positive Ratings:
    222
    The FaN Idea is good, but the way it was put to practice is flawed. The Sandman is Fine as it is, works well and is one of the few true side grades. Bonk! Is a tad situational though. If Bonk! was simply faster to drink it would be fine. The Force-A-Nature however, well.

    The FaN was meant to help scouts seperate key targets from a group (medics, enemy scoots)
    kill them, and escape as quickly as possible. The problem with the FaN is though it has an attribute that helps towards this (the knockback) The rest of the weapon's stats are flawed.

    Id say that it should have stats something along the lines of this:

    The Force-a-Nature

    Knockback on target and shooter
    20% more accurate
    -50% clip size
    -10% damage

    This allows scouts to be effective with the FaN more than they would before, emphasizing the need to take out key targets, whilst keeping the clip size and the damage low to stop it from being used to take out large groups in the way the scattergun is. The accuracy and knock back allow the scout to take out the key target and escape.

    my 2 cents :D
     
  15. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    Interesting take on it. I assumed the FaN was a weapon focused on single targets as well, but thought of it as more of a lone killer kind of thing to finish off a medic that was foolishly left alone. I agree that the Sandman is good as is, though (also you get points for using it.) Bonk! seems to me to be the most broken of the unlocks because it's too situational, so applying it to different strategies is the only real way to fix it, not just reducing drink time.
     
  16. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,769
    Positive Ratings:
    1,517
    Quick Sip function (M2) - .625 second drink time. 3 seconds of effects, 3 seconds of slowdown.

    I would really like quicker sip time overall though, and maybe removing the trail effect w/ bigger miss signs.