Jimmy is studying 5CP Maps!

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Jimmy, May 24, 2010.

  1. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    Ok, Im studying 5cp maps to better my own when I get round to doing it. Ill post my intro + my study on granary just now, and post coldfront, badlands and Yukon later!


    To start this off, I'm gonna go ahead and say this: I'm relatively new to mapping. Take everything you read in here with a pinch of salt. Some of this will be wrong, no doubt. I've decided, since bedrock turned out so well, to stick with tf2 mapping for now. I really want to design a 5cp map, and have some Ideas floating around my head. I thought it would be relatively simple, until I realized how complicated it will be to get the right balance between all the different aspects of tf2, and try and please both the comp and pub scenes.

    I'm gonna start this by looking at 5cp maps in general. For this I'm gonna borrow a pic from Ravidge, showing how when you boil it down to the basic layout, 5cp maps come in two different varieties, Linear and S – shaped:

    [​IMG]

    These are your typical S – Shaped 5cp maps. In this study I'm gonna look at Badlands and Yukon, since I like both of them and they play well.

    [​IMG]

    These are your typical Linear 5cp maps. For this study I'm gonna look at Granary, and also Coldfront. Despite not being on that picture, It fits the linear
    style, and It plays better than Fastlane, and I've decided to do one community and one official map for each type anyway :p .

    Linear 5CP
    Granary

    I for one love granary. I have taken some purty screenshots to help aid me in this guide. To start lets look at the mid, as the mid is arguably the most important point in any 5cp map. The fight over mid can decide who wins and who loses. If a team loses the first fight at mid, they lose morale and the match can follow.

    Granary's mid is interesting. The point itself is raised slightly, with cover for the flanking routes also acting as a height advantage for attacking mid, which any class can access.

    [​IMG]

    Sorry for crap quality in advance. One thing that surprises me is that there is only 3 entrances to mid, and mid itself is really quite small, with what seems a lack of flanking routes, but it is really the complete opposite. Its all to do with those crates. Jumping from the raised entrance to mid onto the crates, pyros and spies can ambush players coming out of the main entrance to mid, and from up there soldiers can cover the point, and to a certain extent, the side routes. Due to the height differences and small size of the mid, and the entrances to mid being at either side of the point, combat is channelled to the point pretty much every time. This makes the straightforward flanking routes with the medium ammo surprisingly useful. The raised point stops people from
    taking too much fall damage when jumping from the crates, and the space between the crates is an excellent ambush sentry spot. It seems that simply providing good height advantages for all classes with some cover makes mid play well. To recap:

    Granary – Mid

    Key points:

    Small
    Height advantage around the point
    Combat channelled by height advantage

    Now to look at something that varies a lot in even 5cp maps of the same style:
    Yards. Some maps have them, others don't. We will look at what the yard does, and the advantages/disadvantages of it.

    [​IMG]

    In the above pic we can see Blu's yard. Its split down the middle by the crate, with either side offering different attacking routes. The yard is here to act as a second battlefield for the team who lose mid. If they are losing badly and down a few men, they can retreat and start to hold off here. There is ammo to help with the building of sentries on one side, and a small area that can be used as a height advantage by soldiers ect. In the far left of the picture. This is can be used to cover one of the entrances to the yard and half of the yard itself. The Yard is good as it helps channel combat to a specific open area, rather than through corridors or narrow pathways, as seen in maps like Yukon. It can however, cause the map to stalemate a bit, due to the lack of entrances for the attackers, with only 2 on either side of the yard.

    Granary – Yard

    Open, some cover
    slight Height advantage for defenders
    can cause map to stalemate due to lack of entrances for attackers
     
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  2. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    Granary's Second point itself is a great point in my opinion, and seems to show some recurring themes for Granary's design: Height advantage for everyone. Not just the defenders, not just certain classes.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The Second cap on granary usually plays well, due to those stairs right there. Those stairs are not in view of the cap or any usual sentry spot, easy to access for the attacking team, and it isn't the defenders main entrance to the higher ground. This means a demoman can shoot stickies around the corner at the top of the stairs, destroy any sentries there, and clear the point. The same can happen with the defending team, but due to the access to that higher ledge stalemates at this point are pretty uncommon. The cap itself also helps stop stalemates. There are two entrances for the attacking team which are out of sight of the defending team entrances, and any sentry spots, with a handy medium health pack and ammo there to help with assaulting the enemy team and any sentries through the doorway where the cap is situated.

    Granary - 2nd CP

    Access to height advantage for both teams
    entrances for attackers out of sight of any sentry spot/ defenders

    I'm not a big fan of granary's last point, It seems very anti-climactic with no big spytech base, just some rockets which don't explode or anything! At least badlands ends in a spytech base.

    [​IMG]

    The CP itself is very open, with a long narrow catwalk leading to the point, useful for attackers. Sentry camping Is pretty much nullified by the open nature of this point, with both exits from spawn being far enough to stop any spawn camping. There is one sentry spot which is useful, but a demo can spam nades over and annihilate any sentries. Attackers have a slight height advantage and a variety of routes to attack from, and there is cover beside the main route into the area around the point, to try and reduce snipers locking it down and helping the attackers. Combat is very hectic and centres around the point. Not the best of final points, though a good defence is needed due to the quick cap time.

    Granary – Last CP

    Variety of attacking routes, cover for main entrances
    open, but with enough cover to stop it being too open
    1 or 2 key defending spots which can be countered
    quick cap time
     
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  3. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    It's finally here!
     
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  4. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    post badlands next!

    +1 for informative post (and seinfeld reference).
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2010
  5. HeaH

    HeaH L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Awesome! Very nice read. 5cps seems like the most complex gamemode in the game

    When are you gonna do the next ones?

    Also, thanked both posts :p
     
  6. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    I was thinking about making a new 5CP map (maaaybe) so this is encouraging and useful. You get two thanks!
     
  7. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

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    Really useful Jimmy! Can't wait for more maps to be done, it shows that linear 5cp as opposed to S shaped isn't ALL that bad ;)
     
  8. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    thankls for the feedback, will be doing badlands over the next few days :D
     
  9. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    S – Shaped 5CP

    Badlands ​


    Badlands is, undoubtedly, the 5cp map that is played most in pubs and comp play. Why its played so much, and what makes it play so well, I shall look at. Though mainly Ill just point out that there is a set of fans behind the last point you can jump into and hide in. Just sayin'.

    Lets start by looking at badlands mid. It is very contrasting to granary's its very large and open. The lack of good sniper cover however stops it being dominated by them, and the multiple height levels allow scouts and spies to sneak around and flank them also.

    [​IMG]

    Once again, sorry for crap quality and squint camera view. In this pic You can see the main thing that, in my opinion, makes it play so well: flanking. I touched on flanking when discussing granary's mid, but it doesn't play as much of a part in granary as it does here. The cap itself is quite exposed, with cover on two sides, which can also be used as a slight height advantage. A small balcony overlooks the point, perfect for sniping or a sentry. This in itself would be a nightmare-ish point in itself, but the area around the cap itself makes it play great. The main entrance to mid is perpendicular to the point, out of view of the enemies entrance. The area under the point is quite open with a lack of health, but you can quickly bypass any sentries or snipers on the balcony, go through the small shack at the side and take down the sentry through the doorway, or from underneath. The lower valley plays a key role in this map.

    Badlands – Mid
    * Obvious sniper/sentry spots which can be flanked
    * Main Entrance Perpendicular to point
    * Linear top path with height advantage + cap
    * open lower path to flank with, or to reach the point with


    Now, at this point in my last study I talked about yards, and their advantages and disadvantages. Badlands takes a different approach to this, with a more open area than granary, with a key chokepoint.

    [​IMG]

    Ill discuss this half of the area just now, and the second half later. The secondary entrance to mid also serves as a funnel for the attacking team, with many players taking this path out into the open area surrounding the second cap. Defenders have a small area of height advantage, which can be countered by a demoman/soldier coming through the building in the middle of this pseudo-yard. I say pseudo because It isn't a yard in the same way that granary's yard is. It serves the same purpose, but is different. It is more of a chokepoint than a yard, with a secondary path with which to flank, which is joined to this chokepoint and the mid by the buildings seperating them.

    [​IMG]

    Bad pic I know, just wanting to show something. This is a flanking route more than a yard. It provides a simple path for both teams to bypass the second point almost entirely, and attack the enemy from the rear. Yes that is meant to sound funny. Well, at least it sounds funny to me. This also highlights what makes Badlands so different from other 5cp maps, even other S-shaped maps like Yukon. That is, the huge emphasis on flanking.

    Badlands – Yard chokepointy bit thingy

    Funnels players to attack through a chokepoint
    Provides an alternate path for both teams to flank
    gives defenders a slight height advantage over a largely open area



    Ok, now on to Badlands 2nd point. This will be a bit shorter than what I wrote on granary's 2nd, as this ties in a lot with the “yard” before the point.

    [​IMG]

    The point itself is best accessed by a high mobility class such as soldier, though can be accessed by every class. Once on the point, the player has cover, some health, and a huge height advantage over the surrounding area. The defenders however, have a battlement overlooking the point only slightly lower than it, allowing them to pick of enemies with ease. This can easily be countered by, guess what? Flanking. The attacking team can easily make their way up to this battlement and give the defending team a face full of Jarate/ boolets / bottles of scrumpy.

    Badlands - 2nd Point
    Point itself offers cover and height advantage
    attacking is easier for high mobility classes
    defenders can hold point easily, but can also be flanked easily


    Ok, badlands last in a point I bow down too. It just works so well. I will try my best to explain why this is.

    [​IMG]

    Shit pic I know, but the low roof is limiting for these pics. Attackers have 3 seperate entrances to the point, and defenders have 2 mirrored sentry spots. These can be countered or completely bypassed sometimes. The cap time is extremely quick, meaning a good defense is encouraged. It is hard to just spam on the point, as one of the attacking entrances means you can easily be sniped off it , and inst enclosed nature means a sentry can't be built behind it effectively. The use of height here means that the attackers can take out the enemies and then cap the point without worrying about them respawning. There is also a great flanking route which can be used by a scout or spy to bypass the sentry/s and quickly cap before the defending team has time to attack.

    Badlands – Last CP
    Height advantage can be used by defenders and countered easily
    quick cap time encourages defending
    sentries can be flanked for quick caps
    enclosed cap means spam is reduced


    Thanks for reading!
     
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  10. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    I demand a bump and more 5Cp study!
     
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  11. HeaH

    HeaH L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    I bump again
     
  12. C00Kies

    C00Kies L3: Member

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    Thanks
    this is vary helpful to keep in mind as I work on my Cp Map
     
  13. zpqrei

    aa zpqrei Theme Changer Extraordinaire

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  14. Owlruler

    Owlruler L12: Fabulous Member

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    Needs less bumping, more working.
     
  15. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    Ugh. I shalst work if it pleases my fans.
     
  16. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    You have no fans. I see no fans. MUSH MONKEY SLAVE GET BACK TO WORK.
     
  17. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    This pleases me. I do suggest a nice combo of Yukon and Well.
     
  18. theharribokid

    aa theharribokid

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    ....friendly reminder bump!
     
  19. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    Thanks for the reminder completely forgot. Will start work on Coldfront.
     
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  20. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

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    COLDFRONT

    Coldfront is a map loved in pubs and played quite frequently in comp play. It has it's strengths and weaknesses, but is overall a great example of linear 5CP.

    Mid

    Coldfront's mid does what needs done: draws combat towards the cap. The snow curves up towards the sides of the building, and the enclosed can and open roof make it a good battlefeild, with combat happening on both horizontal and vertical levels.

    [​IMG]

    The routes into mid give defenders a height advantage if protecting the routes into mid, though all the height advantages can be accesssed by all classes. The general open spacy feel of mid means a Single sentry cannot lock it down, but it is not too open thanks to the breaking up of sightlines by rocks and some cliffs, and the general shape of the land.

    Mid - key points:

    * Open, but cover breaking sightlines
    * Height leads players towards cap, with vertical combat
    * All routes open to all classes

    YARD

    Coldfront has a yard, but it is unlike conventional yards, and an interesting take on it.

    [​IMG]

    It splits the yard in two, much like Badlands, but each size can be accessed by the pipes seperating them. The yard is open and quite flat, meaning an even battlefeild for all attackers. Its split nature means a sentry is useless, and solves the main problem with Yards being camped. This way the attacking team can reach the 2nd CP without attacking the sentry head-on, or at all.


    Yard - key points

    * Split in twain, with different entrances to mid 7 2nd on each side
    * Barrier can be utilized as height advantage by defending and attacking team
    * Attackers can enter 2nd without being attacked from other side of yard

    2ND CP


    Coldfront's 2nd CP fits well with the general feel of the map, and helps to keep the game flowing well.

    [​IMG]

    The Cap itself is raised, only by a small amount. This still helps with spam on the point, and the nearby health makes it a good Ida to push up and attack. The defenders have a height advantage to the left in this picture, which can be accessed by attackers from the other side, and no single sentry can lock down the area for long, much like Granaries 2nd CP. There are obvious defensive points, and ways for the attacking team to counter them. The area surrounding the cap is open, and with the variety of routes into the cavern this allows attacking from any entrance to be effective, though defense can still hold off if maintaned properly.

    2nd CP - key points

    * Point is raised slightly to help against spam
    * Defenders have a height advantage that can be accessed by attackers
    * Key sentry spots that can be countered with a proper push
    * Relatively open with multiple entrances making it hard to lock down

    Last CP


    I like Coldfront's last CP. It uses the Badlands prop, but it plays so differently and works well.

    [​IMG]

    The attackers have a lot of cover just as they come into the battlefield, meaning they have a chance to see what they are facing. They also have a slight height advantage, that can make all the difference in fights involving explosive classes. The badlands prop lends itself here as the enclosed nature of the point means that there are 2 obvious sentry spots, mirrored in the lower area, behind the cover. These can be cornered or pushed through by an Uber effectively, though the open nature of the lower area gives the defenders a good chance at pushing back. The position of the spawn exits at opposite ends of the battlefield means it is hard to spawncamp.

    Last CP - key points

    * Point is enclosed, making it harder to cap, but has fast captime
    * attackers has significant cover, providing good defense spots
    * attackers have slight height advantage over a relatively open area
    * Open nature allows defenders to push back


    Thanks for reading, and I hope this guide was informative!

    one last thing, best thing about this map:

    [​IMG]
     
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