If the community says "Don't cap in this map!", is the map "bad"?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by ryo0ka, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. ryo0ka

    ryo0ka L1: Registered

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    I found a Steam Community post about plr_hightower, where one person says you made a bad map if community considers any form of capping the objective "tryharding" on the replies. Do you think this is true? I feel like it's very successful as it has caught the demand among TF2 players and been loved by them for long years.
     
  2. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    its highertower... you must be new
     
  3. Turbo Lover

    aa Turbo Lover Fight me under Glasgow Central Station

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    Depends what your objective was for the map, most people who make maps here want them to be played normally, and the guy who made Hightower probably also wanted that, it'd be a failure in their eyes.

    That said, death of the author and all that, Hightower is popular for other reasons, and popularity is still a measure of success.
     
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  4. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    ait the dev behind hightower died... damn
     
  5. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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  6. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Nah, Cayle George is very much alive still. Also made foundry and mvm map.
     
  7. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    Looks like the JimiJam poster was his sort of signature overlay.
     
  8. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I hope Cayle is still alive, I liked him :<

    TBH I think the fact that people don't want anyone to cap on hightower says three things:
    • TF2 has a deathmatch niche
    • Hightower is a good deathmatch map
    • Hightower isn't as good a payload race map as it is a deathmatch map
     
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  9. worMatty

    aa worMatty Repacking Evangelist

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    No, I don't think that's true. I think that's a silly comment. Hightower probably facilitated the things YM listed but that does not make it a 'bad map'. It's perfectly enjoyable as a Payload Race map, IMO. And the fact it facilitates these extra modes of play, should a player wish to indulge in them, surely makes it an above average map for gameplay.

    I think this is an example of an emerging culture amongst players, a shared understanding, and a rare example of communication on Valve servers, either verbally or through following others' actions (or inactions). I think that's great but I don't like being told off on the server for playing the map as it was meant to be played, how I enjoy it. I find the attitude of some of those players very harsh, and I could label them as bullies if I were an inexperienced player. The best response is "Fuck off."

    Hey, this is something community server operators could seize, and modify map logic so that the objectives were not achievable. Then the little bullies could join those 24/7 Hightower community servers and we'd all be better off.
     
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  10. Ynders

    aa Ynders absolutely gormful

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    Well the reason people don't want to cap is because they want an everlasting round. And if people actually WANT to play the map for longer, it's most likely because the map is fun to play on. In my opinion, a fun map is a good map, whether that fun emerges from death matching or playing the objective(both of which I think are fun on Hightower)
     
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  11. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Somebody should just take it upon themselves to produce some dedicated deathmatch maps that have no objective and are designed for 24/7 servers. It's still far better than trade maps, frankly.
     
  12. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Just take the caps out of koth maps. BAM
     
  13. DrLambda

    aa DrLambda L69: Teeheehee, Member

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    The thing is: The layout of Hightower makes it very fun to play on, jump around on, do random stuff on (at least for me.) Most classes can do the thing that creates the most fun for them - Demos, Soldiers and scouts can (explosive) jump all day long, Pyros can airblast people down the cliff, spies can be obvious and facestab people (or use the many lesser-used roads and actually be sneaky), Heavies can... shoot at things and sit at the cart (that's what heavies do, right?) and Engis have a whole room dedicated to getting spammed out by Demomen. Even snipers have a balcony where they can shoot exclusively at other snipers while not getting any other sightlines before they get marketgardened.
    All that combined in a compact, easy-to-remember layout where everyone knows where to go after like 5 minutes creates fun gameplay.

    On the other hand, the objectives themselves are "almost impossible" to push, because you have two very chokey paths right at the spawns (ramp and elevator) that completely reset your progress if you don't manage to push through, which usually takes coordinated effort, which is something that pubs are notoriously bad at. That makes me say that from that perspective, the map is kinda bad.

    Ideally, you would create both fun gameplay and a fun-to-fulfill objective, but as the success of Hightower as a "casual" map shows, it sometimes is enough to excel in one category (or maybe 2, i guess noone can really say that the map looks bad.)

    When you try to take Hightower as an inspiration (and i did exactly that when planning out plr_hierarch,) look at what creates the fun gameplay that many players can't get enough off, and actively ignore or at least try to not do what they did with the objective. That's my approach, and we'll see how this works out.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015
  14. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    everyone is accurately saying the same thing, sometimes its not about the capture, sometimes its about going and killing people. Hightower is the best map to learn how to rocket jump.
     
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  15. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    I feel like going back and adding something, sometimes a good break from map making, a good drink of choice, and Vietnam era music can make for some interesting ideas
     
  16. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Every map, even a deathmatch map should still have an objective in tf2. Not because the objective matters, but because it allows a reset (and by that also a scramble by winning twice). Hightower is a hard map to win, so once it happens it can quickly indicate a steamroll situation, and thus making a scramble happen. When the balance is right capping becomes very hard, and those that go for hightower often want to keep that balance.
     
  17. 【EmNudge】

    【EmNudge】 L4: Comfortable Member

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    you can easily remove the objective in hammer or in tf2 by removing the cart or platform that brings it to the detonation trigger.

    the actual problem is that ppl prefer that the map is already downloaded onto the client. makes things a lot easier.
     
  18. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    Years of playing Uncharted 3 Multiplayer has taught me that pure deathmatch with no objective just isn't that much fun, because you end up spending a lot of time aimlessly pottering about the place trying to find some action - kind of like me on a Friday night out - and you don't get a sense of achieving anything, or a sense that the round is even going anywhere. And I feel the same would happen if you got rid of the Payload carts from Hightower and made it a straight deathmatch map. It wouldn't improve anything; it would just make the map stale at a much faster rate.

    It could just be me though. Me with my obsessive desire to be constantly accomplishing things. And also being shit at PVP.
     
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  19. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Or maybe worded diffirently: If you want alot of action you stay close to the objective. if you want a more calm battle field you take the other side of the map.

    A very good feature of having an objective in the map, even when the objective further has no realy use as people just deathmatch.
     
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  20. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    But capping shouldn't be next to impossible. Hightower's balance is skewed at the rollback mechanic. Not only is it extremely close to 1 way spawn exits for the opposing team, at a height disadvantage, but it's a long track obstacle in a small map meaning its very easy for reinforcements from basically anywhere to show up during the progression of the ramp section. It doesn't matter how smart you are in your timing to make sure the enemy is distracted or operating at a distance, even outside of a 32 player server the map is next to impossible to complete if you have even 1 person paying attention to their own cart despite organising half a dozen players into a coordinated assault.

    A paylaod race map should have a spectrum of difficulty spanning the levels play area in relation to proximity to spawns, but it is too easy to make the mistake of putting a dynamic mechanic so far from the attacking team and so close to the defending team it cannot be completed. That isn't balance just because the objective circumstances hold true for both teams.