If it were you guys who were developing, how would you improve 2Fort?

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by The Asylum, Apr 26, 2008.

  1. The Asylum

    aa The Asylum

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    Like, take the 2Fort that exists as it is now. What would you like to see done with it?

    Inquiring minds wish to know.
     
  2. AWESOME-O

    AWESOME-O L10: Glamorous Member

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    Make the middle bridge and water larger, more protections from snipers
     
  3. Paria

    Paria L5: Dapper Member

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    well the biggest problem i find with 2 fort on a public server

    - complete lack of health and ammo packs - except for the sewer,

    - most main attack routes go straight past or extremely close to the main respawn

    - the actual lower levels of the base - the spytech areas are largely unused - if an engineers or 2 is bored enough to sit in there.

    - its very easy to defend the bases having a resupply so close to the main attack routes.
     
  4. sunoxen

    sunoxen L1: Registered

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    Yeah, I hate 2Fort. The only CTF map I can stand is Turbine, and the one with the glass roof that breaks. (Sorry, I forget the name.)

    The problem with 2Fort (Especially in pubs) is that it just turns into a fragfest, and no one gives a crap about the flag or teamwork.

    I think the reason that Turbine works so well is that it is very simple, and it encourages teamwork. When there are two guns in the intelligence room, you have to coordinate your ubers. The only real downside is that it really is a solider map. I hardly ever see Heavies being used effectively, etc, but overall it's a great map.

    I would improve 2Fort by making the intelligence room at ground level without too many complications. The sewers would be used as an alternative way to get to the intelligence. Sometimes you will go a whole game in 2Fort and no hardly anyone uses the sewers. I'd keep the staggered spawns the same, and the hallways a little wider.

    But even if you did that, there's still something kinda off-putting about 2Fort. I'd rather play something new than fix it.
     
  5. VelvetFistIronGlove

    aa VelvetFistIronGlove

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    If no-one gives a crap about the flag or teamwork, that's a problem with the players, not the map. 2fort on a standard server with good teams is wonderful. 2fort with bad teams is a snooze-fest. 2fort on an instant respawn server is a frag-fest.

    2fort is a really well-polished ctf map, that needs good teamwork to win. I can't find much to fault about it.
     
  6. zbandito

    zbandito L1: Registered

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    sunoxen, the map with the breakable glass roof thing is Chaos by Vilepickle, I think.

    Regarding 2fort, I think a bit more sniper cover could do nicely at times. It also seems a bit big, but perhaps that just means you need a more coordinated team. I really value teamplay, but even if a smaller map is more chaotic it's possible this might mean it's easier to play successfully with a mediocre/uncommitted team.

    All that said, though, I really like 2fort. CTF maps FTW.
     
  7. Vilepickle

    Vilepickle L7: Fancy Member

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    Impact, but close :p
     
  8. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    delete button
     
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  9. Vander

    Vander L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    /agrees
     
  10. Dox

    Dox L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Only thing I can think of would be the health packs, I hate constantly having to use the sewer route because thats the only place on the entire map I can heal without a medic.
    And I hate the fact you HAVE to go right in front of the enemy spawn to leave with the flag.
     
  11. Swiss Army Knife

    Swiss Army Knife L1: Registered

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    The alternate route is too linear in relation to the primary route. The sewers also have a very steep travel time penalty. 2Fort in general limits some classes to specific rolls, which I don't particularly like. The Pyro for example is restricted to a Defensive backend ambush role, with Spy checking on the side. The fact that the alternate route which the Pyro has to take unless the bridge isn't being used as a fragfest, is completely anti-Pyro. It's middle is an open pool of water, and there's currently a glitch near the sewer stairs where you can put out fire by crouching into the puddled water. Other classes are set roles but the Pyro is the most limited.

    The Soldier completely dominates both the primary route and the alternate route, the bridge is too much of a bottleneck to be in the middle of the map, which allows Soldiers and Demomen to completely lock it down. The close quarters in the sewers makes it easy for a Soldier to splash damage his way to victory throughout.

    It doesn't actively promote teams going for the intel. The central chaos point at the bridge distracts people from the objective too much. It's not a horrible map, it can be fun, but it's hardly perfect.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2008
  12. Spike

    Spike L10: Glamorous Member

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    2fort is damn difficult for spies , because all ways are always blocked by sentries, if you sappe them you're always going to die. An alternate outdoor route would be fine.

    Everytime I play 2fort,round ends with stalemate
     
  13. ryodoan

    ryodoan Resident Bum

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    Nothing. I would not change 2fort in any way. Really. I am with VelvetFistIronGlove here. The problem is not the map, its the fact that on many Pubs you dont find the nessarry Teamwork. And really, its obviously not a problem if you go on Valves Stats site, 2fort's a pretty balanced map with equal red / blue wins with a small amount of stalemates.\

    [​IMG]

    Both Well and Granary are more likely to end in stalemate. I think you feel that 2Fort always ends in stalemate because those are the matches you remember.
     
  14. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    whats up with well that means red win loads less?!
     
  15. Uriak

    Uriak L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    We on consider on canardplus boards that 2forts is evil incarnated :)

    Seriously, the alternative paths are a complete joke, since most classes must go through a sentry crammed zone to get acces to both corridors leading to the spytech area. ANd because scouts are virtually nullified by any sentry, it ends up with a snipe/rocket fest between the two battlements, with underground sewer providing only life and shelter for engineers and a spytech area witnessing no fights.

    I may add that a map promoting harmfull passage of the attackers just in front of a spawn doesn't qualify for a A rating, imho. Thang god, the prolific blossom of custom maps provides us with fresh entertainment :)

    But to answer to the OP : give a real alternative path to the spytech entrances, coming from the ground corridor under battlements : this should force engi to dispatch themselves a bit more, give the sewers a real role and create more fight situations in the spytech zone.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 29, 2008
  16. flam5

    flam5 L1: Registered

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    I agree with a few comments. I'd make the sewers advance you closer to the intel and have the one spawn room that is next to the courtyard/deck area have multiple exits like the one that leads to the sniper deck does.
     
  17. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    All the complaints Im hearing about 2fort are really directed towards the ctf game mode, not the map. If you think 2fort has all these serious design flaws, then you will never ever like a map. I like it when maps force you to think out side the box... "OK, there's no health anywhere, so Ill have to be a little more conservative" or "I have to hide until I see their spawn wave run out, then I can sneak by" You can't expect the map to cater to your every need as a player. Because, where do you draw the line? All you can do is try to give everyone a fair chance at having a good time.... this is just a video game.... after all. I really don't like people being so friggen critical of maps, stock or custom. Different maps require different strategies, and some will exaggerate team play more than others. Which means some maps will bomb in a public atmosphere and other will shine. So, to me, it sound like people are really saying "2fort sux on a pub" which could be completely true, but it's only a matter of opinion so no one is right.


    So, back on topic:

    I wouldn't change a thing. I have every bit of trust and confidence in valve and their umpteen million hours spent on research/development, and playtesting. Any suggestion you make to change anything will have an adverse effect on someone else anyway.
     
  18. Paria

    Paria L5: Dapper Member

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    yep thats why they have added healthpacks and ammo to various locations throughout the map now :thumbup:,

    2fort is not the pinnacle of ctf, unfortunately i dont see them making a new ctf map in a hurry either.
     
  19. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

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    That pretty-well explains my experience with the map. And true, as mentioned before, it was probably due to poor teamwork each time I played. I would stick it out and try harder on the map, but maps like Dustbowl are so much more enjoyable.
     
  20. Brandished

    Brandished L5: Dapper Member

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    How does 2fort even have that many stalemates when the map doesn't even HAVE a round timer by default? o_0

    I know some of those are due to servers modding a timer in, but still...
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2008