I Need Layout Feedback

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by shadowslasher11, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. shadowslasher11

    aa shadowslasher11

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    This isn't helping me anymore. This thing called !fb and !gf isn't helping one bit. I'm not getting anything out of it, and only being told the problems without any possible solutions from people.

    I need severely detailed feedback on Heatwave, but it's becoming impossible for me to figure out any solutions. I'm practically on my knees here begging for someone to give me an answer. I'm growing tired of working on this map, and I don't want to let it slip from being completed. Not after how much I've worked on it.

    Please Help! :cursing:
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
  2. Dr. Sasha

    Dr. Sasha L4: Comfortable Member

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    Compare your maps with valve maps

    are the height differences the same?
    are areas around the same size or too small or big?

    One thing that always helps me is thinking if my map would pass as an official map, if not, then I immediatley know why, or something that is out of Valve's style.

    Ignore all that and wide open areas and your layout should be taking shape.

    You can also modify the layout of an official map and put on a different theme, and work from there. That always helps me.

    Good luck, I often have the exact same troubles as you,
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
  3. shadowslasher11

    aa shadowslasher11

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    In a way I like this idea, in a way I don't.

    Looking at official maps, while good. Is sometimes a difficult challenge in itself, as people have their own opinions of certain maps, while others don't. I know custom maps have the same thing. But I'm really looking for what's the major problem here?

    Like:
    -Why is red so easily able to push out? (Most Likely Spawn Times...I'm looking into it.)
    -Is there a better place I can put a forward spawn?
    -Why is B so difficult to capture for Blue?
    -Do I need to completely redo an area? Or rotate it?
     
  4. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    First up:
    It is not for us to dictate the direction should take, it is you who is designing it, not us. You should be finding your own solutions to the problems you're seeing. Every time we play a demo is recorded, you should be using these, when you hear or see someone say/write feedback while playing, go rewind the demo, watch through their eyes and see what lead to their comments. Then try and prevent it from happening again.

    I shall reiterate some of the feedback I've left multiple times in imps so far. (Excepting comments about A)
    [​IMG]

    You're now funneling playes up to the top route (1), which is OK, but it is INCREDIBLY narrow. It's wiggly and hard to get out of. It's fun when you can leave, and "ugh yuck" when you can't.

    The entire design of A is terrible. It's bland, it's boring and it's uninspired. You've got a solid wall that runs from blu spawn towards B and the only thing giving it any 'interest' are the two walls of that cp building (blue lines). It forces players to take this very flat and awkward W shape when entering and exiting A. This is a problem for both teams, no one has any interesting ways in, our out of the point, you just have to run around the corner at (2) and hope there's going to be no one there. To compund the problem, as soon as you start to go around those walls you step into either (9) or (10) and can be seen by the other team on the other side. Ugh.

    I quite like B, but it needs work since the flow always sens me the wrong way as blu. I find 100% of the time there's an abundance of engies and other classes (presumably using teleports, but not necessarily) that are loitering around (4) for defense. Especially as I find the arrow by (3) as my main route onto the point, it already sets me up for leaving the point in the direction of (4), so since I'm already facing that way, and there are engies set up there, the most logical place to run after capping is towards that blu forward spawn.
    On top of all this, the blu forward spawn is a visually interesting exit to the area it reeaaaalllly looks like the way to go. To contrast this, (6) is a visually unsignified exit that you can't even see when entering the B arena. Not to mention the fact you can hardly even see that door when you're standing on the point because of that truck. Everything here is setting me up to go the wrong way.

    Finally defending as red. Half the time I spawn on the lower side of the spawn (relative to the overview) and leave through that exit. But that always fucks me up, because it's a completely useless way to leave spawn to get out of the base. It drops you down into the C arena, which in itself is fine, but it offers you no way to get out eaasily. I follow the path show and trend towards the direction I know B and A are in, but I end up in a dead end loopy bit (7). To get out I have to do a complete loop (8) up those stairs, then (6) looks like the best way to go so I leave that door and discover, again, I've gone the wrong way, and finally turn in the right direction.
     
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  5. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I have a notebook I keep next to my computer at all times, along with a niiiice pen (When I can find it). I jot down whatever I'm seeing and hearing from a snowplow test. I suggest everyone who wants to make maps on some level of seriousness, do this. It has been faaantastically helpful.
     
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  6. Shogun

    Shogun L6: Sharp Member

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    You need to examine your map closer, especially when people are playing it. If you're not getting enough feedback, try spectating while people are playing to see what they do.

    I've played heatwave a lot and I quite like it, so I'll try and address some of your points.

    - It is way too easy for red to push out (of C, in this case) because there are just too many flanks. I know you based C heavily on Gullywash last, but that doesn't really work on 3CP like it does 5CP. On 5CP, team will be pushing in and out of places and holding areas for long ammounts of time before moving to a new one, but on 3CP, BLUb only nneds to be pushing in and Red defending. But with all the routes/flanks in and out of Gullywash's lobby, it makes it too easy for Red players to run out into Blu's ranks. Also, last is inside a big room, so players are going to get bored after a while and want to run out and get some kills.

    - If people are complaining about the long walk from spawn to the next point, just ask where they'd rather have a forward spawn. Keep in mind however this may not be the best spot as Blu players will want to win, and the position they give you may give them too much of an advantage. Make some adjustment from their suggestions if it seems this way.

    - B is difficult too cap because it gives Red SOOO much of a height advantage, and on top of which it overlooks all of Blu's entrances into the area. By the time a push by Blu makes it to the point, many of the players will have already died, and the few remaining players still have to run up an incline, putting themselves at yet another disadvantage. It's simply too difficult for Blu to be successful most of the time.
     
  7. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    I agree with this 100%. I do the same. Screenshots along with short text blurbs of my own thoughts at the time on occasion, as well.

    My pen is crap, though.
     
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  8. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I'll lend you mine later.
     
  9. radarhead

    aa radarhead Hands out ratings like cheap cigars

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    I haven't gotten a chance to play heatwave in a while, but last I checked, I thought A was pretty fun to both attack and defend.