Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Joshenkstone, Apr 26, 2016.
Some people don't seem to like it.
I hate to think how many people played Hydro for the very first time tonight.
Hydro is TF2's best launch map.
I hate to think how many people played Hydro for the very first time tonight.
Hydro is TF2's worst map period. Stalematey, Cramped, Spammy, Sentry gun heavy, Confusing, Back-cap prone and just an overall bad gameplay experience. The game has evolved from what it was in 2007. The map might have worked for coordinated teams of 6 or so players back then, but it's just not made for pubs and doesn't fit TF2 anymore.
It's one redeeming factor is the art, mmmmmm goddamn that's some good art.
I pretty much like how Valve detailed Hydro.
It feels that the map was created when computers weren't that powerful and that developers was cheaping out on any detail that could decrease FPS.
Still, they succeeded - I like Hydro artpass, I like that optimisedly-beautiful views.
About gameplay - Valve did want not to create many maps 20% of which will be played. Valve did want to create a big map to hang out at, and made a mistake with the gameplay.
Actually, they thought wrong about 20%. Valve no longer make maps, they apply community ones. Simple, with easily understandable objective that is 1 or, more rarely, 2 - payload cart, current attacked point in A/D or symmetrical CP, the Hill to be King of. What I wanted to say - If Valve have actually seen what the game will be played like, they would not create such a big map with such a confusing gameplay.
People have bad experiences with the map because the only servers running them had either 23 bots or 22 bots and an afk person on it.
I've played Hydro today for what, 2 hours, and I really enjoyed it. It's controlled chaos, sort of like Hightower, but with an actual objective to do.
As for the looks, Hydro is still one of the most beautiful maps in TF2. It was created in a time when computers weren't as powerful so detailing is very minimal, but executed brilliantly. It could get another art pass though, bring it up to modern mapping standards. Its biggest weaknesses are the water around the dam and warehouse (which doesn't even refract or reflect anything) and the pale 3D skybox (which comes closer to the playable space than any other map today, I mean, look above the vent entrance into BLU's final base. It's all skybox above that entrance, and it shows). I guess you can also count the pointy displacement walls as a negative and the brighter-than-necessary ambient lighting, but other than that it's gorgeous.
I played the map for about 60-90 minutes now, and i must say that some of the areas are quite fun to fight in, while others are obviously way way to small to have an actual "modern" fight happen inside of them. It's saying something when i can take the Direct Hit and dominate multiple people with it. Also, some areas have flanking possibilities that can just break the game, especially if a team has pushed for five minutes, then a player finds an unguarded flank and simply backcaps. Having a safety measure like a third cp in there would help a lot.
I would consider Hydro to be an okay map, which could be great if the obvious problems it has would be solved. This isn't going to happen, but boy would i be happy if it would.
Putting aside the problems inherent in the map that make many games never end, or even progress (and when they do, people are apparently willing to call a team scramble halfway through the last point...), it's fun to play on as an Engineer, but there are one or two cap points which were clearly designed before the addition of the Wrangler and the Rescue Ranger, and a single good Engineer can be really frustrating to fight against.
It was fun to play on for awhile, but I just got really bored with the gameplay after an hour. And then I hopped onto Watergate, and I realized just how poor quality Hydro was. I think TC holds promise as a game mode, but Hydro's level-to-level design kind of sucks by today's standards. Very pretty map, though.
I like how people who arn't mappers all say that the cap times are to fast but you guys don't even mention anything about the cap times.
hydro is super pretty but red-sided as fuck and seems to either wipe/roll as soon as the teams meet or stalemate completely
blu last seems to cap before blu can even get out to defend it
They are, i just forgot to mention them. Not much to low as in 5CP last, but similar.
I think it's unfair on the map and its authors to only have the options of 'good' or 'bad'. There are lots of things to consider. Context is crucial. You have to think about intent, design and refinement processes, results, suitability, the audience, trends, history, and so on. The same things should be considered when reviewing 2fort and Turbine.
For those of you saying it would be cool if hydro's appearance was modernized. Keep in mind that hydro is dangerously close to the entity limit, any more edict creating detail can and will cause server crashes.
fun fact, the map has 96 spawn points, and somewhere around 200 point_spotlights
I wouldn't call any of the stock TF2 maps bad. Hydro in particular merges gameplay and aesthetics so well that most community maps (and even some stock maps) pale in comparison.
Gameplay wise, the map hasn't aged perfectly, especially the gamemode, but my love is pretty much unconditional by this point
<3 you, Hydro
I once took a look at the decompiled version of Hydro, then turned off all the world geometry. Holy fuck are there a crapload of entities. A good chunk of that is just to get the game mode working properly.
And by modernizing it doesn't necessarily mean adding props and all that, it's a couple of things that are really showing Hydro's age, like the non-reflective and non-refractive water around the dam and warehouse, the pointy displacements around the dam area, and some low-res materials that are also stretched quite a bit more than they should on, again, pointy and non-seamless displacements. Oh, and it could get a reduction in ambient lighting intensity, with blacker shadows and a skybox material that doesn't have obvious-as-balls seams. Non of these require additional entities.
Also, what are the point_spotlights doing in Hydro? I've literary never seen them do anything different than a light_spot or a simple light entity, if I've ever seen them in the first place.
I've noticed that older TF2 maps use point_spotlight often. By the time pl_goldrush rolled around, Valve switched to sprites and lightglows. (Similar situation with the sun - old stock maps use a prop sun or a painted skybox sun. Starting with goldrush most daytime tf2 maps use an env_sun)
Modernizing Hydro might help the map technically, but considering modern Valve I'm 90% sure something terrible would happen
Personally, I think the lighting in Hydro is nearly perfect, especially the ambient lighting, but I just posted about how much I love the whole map so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ~bias~
I have to tell you a secret, I have never played on Hydro.
Practically fucking impossible to hold BLU's final point.
It doesn't work in SFM and that is the biggest complaint I have with it
Same with RED, which is even worse.
Yup. Parts of the map completely disappear like the radar above the radar dish and parts of the turbine room go missing as well. Badwater has the same problem.
There's also a texture error that causes gigantic brown marks on most of the buildings, like the one used for Expiration Date.
Not to mention all of the normal problems with the map like missing details or parts that are straight up invisible when you look at them from a slightly different angle. One of these days I'll make a big photo set of all of them
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