How to come up with a decent layout?
- Thread starter Lord Ned
- Start date
not that im saying my map is any good necessarily but when i decided to make it i got the concept from it soley based on the idea of having a tunnel behind a waterfall
whatever works
whatever works
Oh hey, gravelpit... but you switched the letters A and B around
Yeah, it is indeed hard to come up with something different for 3cp a/d. but you could atleast try.
Here's an alternative idea. i don't know how well it will work, but it might be worth giving a shot:
Build some prefabs. These don't have to be overly complex, just build things you know you'll use. I've got a spawn point that I'm very happy with. I've got it set aside for use later. I know the dimensions of it so I can plan off that. Don't do it for everything, just basic elements you know you'll use repeatedly. Like sections of corridor made to fit together and with 'end caps' that have doors on them. That gives you some elements to worth with.
Next, pick a shape. I don't mean a brush, I mean a shape. A star, a triangle, a square, an S, a +, an octagon, an 8, whatever. Draw that. Just a fairly regular shape. This is the flow chart. And by flow chart I mean this is a sketch of the paths of travel.
Look at the shape and figure out where the important spots should be. All of the map types boil down to points. Capture points. Move object from point A to point B. Keep the other team away from your point. Look at your flow diagram and think about where these ought to be. This will likely depend upon the game type you're working on. Single points (KotH) are centered. Attack/Defend maps tend to put the last point in front of the Defenders' spawn and then space out the rest with a gap between the first and the Attackers' spawn. CTF and Granary style CP maps space things out equidistantly with the intel or final points for each side located near spawns.
You now have your flow, your important points, your game type, and a good idea of how they interact. Now divide it up into parts- look at each point as its own section, and the areas between points as sections. Think about what you want to do with each one.
Points are best set up so that they can be accessed from multiple directions, and defended from multiple locations, and each counters the other. A Heavy who stands here is can cover there, but he'll be vulnerable from [/i]over here[/i]. Try to make sure that there's simply no way to cover everything at the same time with two or three people. Make sure that the main flow remains unobstructed, and you can get from one point to the next without having to do a lot of doubling back. Gravel pit's a good example of this because the ridge in the area for A leads from BLU spawn up to A, then arcs around and brings you down to the tunnel to B, which encourages you to make a U-turn into the building to hit the point, and then keep going straight to the entrance to C.
The areas between points are going to be similarly important. Bottlenecks are good, particularly right before you get to a section containing a point. Multiple pathways are great, especially ones tailored for specific classes, like Spies and Scouts. If there's a bottleneck there'll be fighting. If it's wide open, people are likely to retreat or push forward quickly. It's difficult to stop a rush across open ground, just because there's so many angles to cover. Short paths should be dangerous, long paths should be safe(r) but boring. Keep your direct routes well lit, let the side paths stay dim. The more direct the route, the more likely it should be big enough to accommodate a whole team running through it.
You should now have a 'map' that consists of a big path sectioned off with some dots on it, and smaller paths indicating side routes. Think about it in three-dimensions. You can make these side routes go horizontal, sure- but you can also go vertical. Change things up, both in terms of altitude but also design- nothing too fancy just yet, but we're getting to the details so it's good to start thinking about this. Is this part in a building? Alright- then maybe the main route is the ground floor, an upper side route is among rafters, wires, and HVAC ductwork, and an underground route has utility boxes, pipes, and metal flooring. Make sure each path is distinct enough to be visually interesting, but keep a theme going.
Right, so now you've got all your general bits, you've got your ideas for themes, your paths, it's time to start putting it together more distinctly. You should have ideas for props you want to use by now, along with textures. Start checking out props and see what their dimensions are, make notes for each one. Try to make sure it all blends. Keep the red versus blue idea in mind, and know who's home turf each area is (in Attack/Defend it's often all RED territory, in balanced maps you usually have distinct RED and BLU areas with middle ground being more neutral). Come up with a solidified theme for the whole map.
Now start applying the prop size requirements to the areas they'll be used in. This door is 186 HU high? Then the room will have to be more than that to make it work. The wall supports are 216 HU per section, with a 32 HU gap between supports? This path's length will need to be able to be broken down into those numbers. And so on.
And now you're basically ready. Put together a map that uses basic dev brushes and prefabs that matches your final design dimensions. Start running alpha tests. See what works. Isolate problems to specific areas. Try reworking those sections or paths. Once the basic problems are hammered out and it's decently playable, start swapping in those props and textures you picked out. Work on a section at a time. Get it looking good, test it regularly and use the feedback as fuel to keep you working.
Pick out a couple areas where you might do easter egg things, like the control room in 2Fort or the bomb assembly facility in Gold Rush. Build those separately with only one or two guidelines to keep track of- basically things like 'this will be visible through a window here, in these dimensions.' Have fun with it, attach it to your map, and go from there.
Then it's just a matter of things like cubemaps, sound environments, and tweaking your item placement.
(And now that you've read all that, no, I've never done the above, nor have I ever finished a map; I'm mostly extrapolating from what I've read and just coming up with ideas off the top of my head. But it sounds good, right?)
Build some prefabs. These don't have to be overly complex, just build things you know you'll use. I've got a spawn point that I'm very happy with. I've got it set aside for use later. I know the dimensions of it so I can plan off that. Don't do it for everything, just basic elements you know you'll use repeatedly. Like sections of corridor made to fit together and with 'end caps' that have doors on them. That gives you some elements to worth with.
Next, pick a shape. I don't mean a brush, I mean a shape. A star, a triangle, a square, an S, a +, an octagon, an 8, whatever. Draw that. Just a fairly regular shape. This is the flow chart. And by flow chart I mean this is a sketch of the paths of travel.
Look at the shape and figure out where the important spots should be. All of the map types boil down to points. Capture points. Move object from point A to point B. Keep the other team away from your point. Look at your flow diagram and think about where these ought to be. This will likely depend upon the game type you're working on. Single points (KotH) are centered. Attack/Defend maps tend to put the last point in front of the Defenders' spawn and then space out the rest with a gap between the first and the Attackers' spawn. CTF and Granary style CP maps space things out equidistantly with the intel or final points for each side located near spawns.
You now have your flow, your important points, your game type, and a good idea of how they interact. Now divide it up into parts- look at each point as its own section, and the areas between points as sections. Think about what you want to do with each one.
Points are best set up so that they can be accessed from multiple directions, and defended from multiple locations, and each counters the other. A Heavy who stands here is can cover there, but he'll be vulnerable from [/i]over here[/i]. Try to make sure that there's simply no way to cover everything at the same time with two or three people. Make sure that the main flow remains unobstructed, and you can get from one point to the next without having to do a lot of doubling back. Gravel pit's a good example of this because the ridge in the area for A leads from BLU spawn up to A, then arcs around and brings you down to the tunnel to B, which encourages you to make a U-turn into the building to hit the point, and then keep going straight to the entrance to C.
The areas between points are going to be similarly important. Bottlenecks are good, particularly right before you get to a section containing a point. Multiple pathways are great, especially ones tailored for specific classes, like Spies and Scouts. If there's a bottleneck there'll be fighting. If it's wide open, people are likely to retreat or push forward quickly. It's difficult to stop a rush across open ground, just because there's so many angles to cover. Short paths should be dangerous, long paths should be safe(r) but boring. Keep your direct routes well lit, let the side paths stay dim. The more direct the route, the more likely it should be big enough to accommodate a whole team running through it.
You should now have a 'map' that consists of a big path sectioned off with some dots on it, and smaller paths indicating side routes. Think about it in three-dimensions. You can make these side routes go horizontal, sure- but you can also go vertical. Change things up, both in terms of altitude but also design- nothing too fancy just yet, but we're getting to the details so it's good to start thinking about this. Is this part in a building? Alright- then maybe the main route is the ground floor, an upper side route is among rafters, wires, and HVAC ductwork, and an underground route has utility boxes, pipes, and metal flooring. Make sure each path is distinct enough to be visually interesting, but keep a theme going.
Right, so now you've got all your general bits, you've got your ideas for themes, your paths, it's time to start putting it together more distinctly. You should have ideas for props you want to use by now, along with textures. Start checking out props and see what their dimensions are, make notes for each one. Try to make sure it all blends. Keep the red versus blue idea in mind, and know who's home turf each area is (in Attack/Defend it's often all RED territory, in balanced maps you usually have distinct RED and BLU areas with middle ground being more neutral). Come up with a solidified theme for the whole map.
Now start applying the prop size requirements to the areas they'll be used in. This door is 186 HU high? Then the room will have to be more than that to make it work. The wall supports are 216 HU per section, with a 32 HU gap between supports? This path's length will need to be able to be broken down into those numbers. And so on.
And now you're basically ready. Put together a map that uses basic dev brushes and prefabs that matches your final design dimensions. Start running alpha tests. See what works. Isolate problems to specific areas. Try reworking those sections or paths. Once the basic problems are hammered out and it's decently playable, start swapping in those props and textures you picked out. Work on a section at a time. Get it looking good, test it regularly and use the feedback as fuel to keep you working.
Pick out a couple areas where you might do easter egg things, like the control room in 2Fort or the bomb assembly facility in Gold Rush. Build those separately with only one or two guidelines to keep track of- basically things like 'this will be visible through a window here, in these dimensions.' Have fun with it, attach it to your map, and go from there.
Then it's just a matter of things like cubemaps, sound environments, and tweaking your item placement.
(And now that you've read all that, no, I've never done the above, nor have I ever finished a map; I'm mostly extrapolating from what I've read and just coming up with ideas off the top of my head. But it sounds good, right?)
Oh hey, gravelpit... but you switched the letters A and B around
Yeah, it is indeed hard to come up with something different for 3cp a/d. but you could atleast try.
Hey just wait until I put the Gravelpit layer back on. Then it REALLY looks like GP.
That's an interesting idea. I've always known that maps should flow well but I've never seen using shapes for flow. Will try it.
Thanks. I'll think about that. Gonna go get me some paper now.
Remix
L69: Deviant Member
- Feb 27, 2008
- 69
- 15
My Design Order
Beyond this point, I no longer even look at the sketches. They won't help you now, so you don't need them. Just go completely off of feedback from testing and fix your map piece by piece. In the alpha stages, you should finish the main paths around your map, spawn and capture times, ground displacements, and major entity setup.
I don't do anything special with lights, textures, or details until beta stages.
- Draw a very very very rough sketch
- Create that sketch in Hammer
- Personally compile and test for height/scale on things like scout jumps, rocket jumps, sticky jumps.
- Fix any problems from the above compile
- Make map playable
- Playtest
Beyond this point, I no longer even look at the sketches. They won't help you now, so you don't need them. Just go completely off of feedback from testing and fix your map piece by piece. In the alpha stages, you should finish the main paths around your map, spawn and capture times, ground displacements, and major entity setup.
I don't do anything special with lights, textures, or details until beta stages.
sicsided
L1: Registered
- Jul 25, 2008
- 10
- 2
I too had trouble coming into TF2 doing layout design, and I found out my problem was over thinking all the classes with the gameplay. I've done layout designs and maps for other games, but thinking about dealing with those 9 classes in terms of balance/gameplay it seemed daunting. I decided to look at the class structure though and take it as this: Only think of designing an area for Attack, Defense, and Support. Even though there are small things sometimes designed for a specific class, other classes will always try to do them too and succeed.
When coming up with an idea for a map, I usually go on a walk or drive around thinking of what could fit within TF2's world and what would seem interesting (and living in the midwest, most of the stuff here fits with TF2, while the interesting part is few and far). I take that interest point, and think about the things around and how that functions with the rest of the world. For a mine, you've got the excavated hill/mountain (perhaps vertical gameplay), shafts lengthy tunnels (sniper areas but also areas for rocket spam to cover), carts and machinery (cover or perhaps gametype), and quite a few other things to go with it. I then think of the biggest focal point of the map, usually being the middle, and try to think of that. Sketch out an area and think of how attackers can get there, defenders can stop any forward progress, and areas where support can hang back or 'hide' until reinforcements come. I take all the factors that were research before into account here, possibly giving attackers an open excavation pit to fight in, carts surrounding the area for cover, and some passages ways in the back or support beams that the support players can hang back in. Usually, then take that main focal point and try to think of even more extravagant things to have as areas of interest before reaching said area. Perhaps there is an environmental death area with large machinery cutting away the walls in an area that is cramp but still opens up from time to time.
As for drawing layouts, I usually do a rough sketch, further go over it with something darker and then scan it into the computer. I then color coat the areas to remember certain things and to emphasize height. (Each level of height has different colors).
As said before, much of this will change during alpha testing, and will lead to a better output if you really really listen to your testers. Hopefully, testers will give good feedback.
Sorry if any of this has been posted before.
When coming up with an idea for a map, I usually go on a walk or drive around thinking of what could fit within TF2's world and what would seem interesting (and living in the midwest, most of the stuff here fits with TF2, while the interesting part is few and far). I take that interest point, and think about the things around and how that functions with the rest of the world. For a mine, you've got the excavated hill/mountain (perhaps vertical gameplay), shafts lengthy tunnels (sniper areas but also areas for rocket spam to cover), carts and machinery (cover or perhaps gametype), and quite a few other things to go with it. I then think of the biggest focal point of the map, usually being the middle, and try to think of that. Sketch out an area and think of how attackers can get there, defenders can stop any forward progress, and areas where support can hang back or 'hide' until reinforcements come. I take all the factors that were research before into account here, possibly giving attackers an open excavation pit to fight in, carts surrounding the area for cover, and some passages ways in the back or support beams that the support players can hang back in. Usually, then take that main focal point and try to think of even more extravagant things to have as areas of interest before reaching said area. Perhaps there is an environmental death area with large machinery cutting away the walls in an area that is cramp but still opens up from time to time.
As for drawing layouts, I usually do a rough sketch, further go over it with something darker and then scan it into the computer. I then color coat the areas to remember certain things and to emphasize height. (Each level of height has different colors).
As said before, much of this will change during alpha testing, and will lead to a better output if you really really listen to your testers. Hopefully, testers will give good feedback.
Sorry if any of this has been posted before.
