How do you define "too open"?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by a2h, Dec 20, 2009.

  1. a2h

    a2h L2: Junior Member

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    One piece of feedback that most commonly is given to me by people is that areas like

    [​IMG]
    and
    [​IMG]

    are too open.

    I've been told that so many times throughout the 1.5 years I've worked on Tyrol; yet nothing in those regards has changed.

    In the first image, those rocks and wheels placed near the track are my attempts at giving cover.

    ...

    "Too open".

    So, what?

    What's "too open"?

    All I seem to get is that it's sniping and spam paradise, or whatever.
     
  2. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    [​IMG]

    More seriously, they're too open because... well... there's too much open space. Maps need to be more tight, have more cover, buildings, etc. filling space, not just open land with stuff on the sides and rocks in the middle. Sightlines should also be smaller. You just have too much empty space, there's nothing filling it, there's nothing interesting, and long range/spam classes will dominate.
     
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  3. Daedryon

    Daedryon L3: Member

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    Agreed.

    Too open.

    I mean, Team Fortress 2 isn't like Call of Duty or Counter Strike.

    Giant areas work in those games because (in COD) you can crouch/crawl, and most maps that are open have either tall grass or lots of trees/overgrowth.

    In Team Fortress 2, giant areas lead to teams full of Snipers looking for any easy headshot they can get their hands on, and as Nineaxis said, dominations.
     
  4. Bermuda Cake

    Bermuda Cake L9: Fashionable Member

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    OK, first pic, you can see on the right there is a massive sniper line that even goes to some stairs as well, which give a great vantage to a sniper. The rocks you have placed are in the middle, I suggest moving them in a zigzag shape, mabye? Also make the track curve a bit. Imo, a good way of stopping snipers is giving the sniped team a height advantage, or a safe alternate passage that allows them to get to the sniper. The sniper should'nt really feel safe where they are, more just popping out of cover to take a shot. You don't want to underpower snipers, though: add bits where people have to make a choice: do they want to take a more open route that offers an advantage (more health, quicker?) or do they want the safer route without the disadvantage.

    Hope this helps, seems a shame to let the map go to waste!
     
  5. a2h

    a2h L2: Junior Member

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    [​IMG]

    Is moving the building forward to the red wireframe a good idea?
     
  6. Dr. ROCKZO

    Dr. ROCKZO L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Firstly, it looks like the base of the map consists of big rectangles, so you've naturally got long sightlines and straight paths. instead of putting buildings around these things, you need to hack them up.

    [​IMG]

    Concerning the Red Wireframe, I think, even after what you're trying to do, you should flatten out that building and extend the platform, otherwise, it's going to go unused as an isolated, too high from the track building.
     
  7. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    TF2 is not like other FPSs.

    TF2 was designed to encourage more close-to-medium combat. Thus all classes, except for the sniper, suffer from damage falloff over distance. With such vast open areas, most classes are rendered completely ineffective, unable to do anything significant. Not to mention they do not look aesthetically interesting at all.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
  8. Daedryon

    Daedryon L3: Member

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    Which is exactly what I said in my post.

    If TF2 had a Crawl feature like Call of Duty had, and the maps had some features like tall grass you could crawl through and be undetected, then yes, those maps would be perfect.

    But since we can't crawl, and we're almost always out in the open, maps need to be smaller.
     
  9. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Except his post was more informative.
     
  10. Daedryon

    Daedryon L3: Member

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    Nobody likes a smartass, lol :p
     
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  11. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

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    Stop quoting people!

    But yeah, if you have a large area that serves no purpose other than "being large", then it won't help at all. Adding an un-enterable building that breaks up the ground and also blocks sightlines is usually a good idea, because you don't have to have a random rock sticking out of the ground for no real reason. It can also help with optimizing a lot.
     
  12. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    [​IMG]
    Try extending the building out to the long hallway and connect the 2 with the capture point inside the building.
     
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  13. KaiserFate

    KaiserFate L69: Deviant Member

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    The hanging path looks very long, there's not a lot of room to maneuver other than back and forth which isn't good for a player over such a long distance. It also seems like if you managed to get into the building, the enemy team would have a very difficult time killing whoever was in it, no matter their angle of attack.
    Hope this helps.
     
  14. megawac

    megawac L4: Comfortable Member

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    Yea this reminds me of how terrible the gameplay is on ctf_doublecross... Honestly a good sniper on the battlements can easily cover the exit, the bridge and the trainbridge... which lacks trains :(
     
  15. Daedryon

    Daedryon L3: Member

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    Uh, no. I quote as I see fit.

    S'all I gotta say to you.

    To the original poster of this topic (sorry, I forgot your name), your maps look incredible, better than anything I could ever come up with.

    You just need to tighten things up abit.

    I'd love to play these maps once they're done.
     
  16. a2h

    a2h L2: Junior Member

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    Alright, with these considerations I'm planning on three things to do in order:

    * Extend building next to the cap in the first image towards the upper end of it (done in a18test3, a18test2 is being tested on Wednesday)
    * Add some cover extending from the extension of that building
    * Move the building in the bottom of the first image forward and reduce its size
     
  17. Time

    Time L1: Registered

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    Perhaps adding the rocks in a zigzag form (as suggested previously) would be good as well?