Hill of the Kings

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Surtr, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    As my next mapping project is most likely going to be a KOTH map, I was curious about what people had to say about the mode from past experiences.

    What do you think the worst and best parts of KOTH maps are as a player?

    What are the biggest mistakes when making KOTH maps in Hammer?

    Thanks for any and all help.
    Cheers.
     
  2. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Personal experience, don't underestimate how much work a KOTH can and most likely will be for you. Even though I kept my scaling correct the entirety of the map was way to small (Spawn -> Point -> Enemy Spawn). Knowing that I set out to expand upon it, ended up scrapping the whole layout and adding way more (Spawn -> Transition -> Small Yard -> Point -> Small Yard -> Transition -> Enemy Spawn). Eventually I ended with a map twice the size of my old one and now I have tons more to do.

    I'm enjoying it, but just a heads up it's still lots of work.

    Oh and one last thing, finding a unique idea for the middle point might be a slight challenge. It was for me at least, great learning experience.
     
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  3. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    For a beginning map maker do you think I should stick to ARENA for difficulty matters? Or should I just tough it out and stick with KOTH? Those are the only two modes that support my map idea right now.

    In terms of scaling, right now I am conducting research on all Valve KOTH maps and it turns out that the distance from RED Spawn to BLU Spawn is:

    • Viaduct: roughly 6600 HUs
    • Sawmill: roughly 6600 HUs
    • Harvest: roughly 4600 HUs
    • Nucleus: roughly 5200 HUs
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2011
  4. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Either mode is still a bit of work, it really doesn't matter if you're a beginner or not. You'd learn just as much working on a KotH for 10 hours as you would mapping for A/D for 10 hours. It's just a matter of practice really.

    As for sizes, anywhere from 4500 to 6500 sounds about right. Just experiment, lots of playtesting will flesh out flaws in your layout.
     
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  5. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    What I noticed with my KoTH map (see sig) is that you need to not be linear, make things in a V or something, or circular. Symmetrical is okay, but keeping it linear can make gameplay dull.

    You could look at my KoTH map as a "meh" map, not the best, but not the worst. I know of a few other good KoTH maps to look at, but can't think of them off the top of my head.


    EDIT: To add onto what vincent said... Making any type of map (barring maybe TC) as a first map is a great learning experience. I learned a LOT with my first (now dead) map, and took what I learned and put it into rundown.. and personally I found it to be a MASSIVE improvement.
     
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  6. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    its good for a first map. not too much you can do to make it super-unique - although i think there is a bit of untapped potential.

    you could always add 2 more points and have a nice multi-koth :)
     
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  7. Moose

    Moose L6: Sharp Member

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    You could also recycle it into a 5cp depending on how it plays.

    Anyways koth to me is all about making the point itself easy to stand on. If there's any kind of easy way to spam on the point from a ledge or something, people will want to run away from the point. Then it just turns into a dm with everybody running around being disorganized. In my opinion you want to fight over the point not only because it's the objective, but also because it's the best area to fight from.
     
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  8. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    Would you say that that is why people don't really enjoy Viaduct? I mean, the point is so open to fire from any of the opposing team's 4 exits that it really isn't the ideal place to fight.

    On the flip side, you have Sawmill or Nucleus, were the point is much more defensible and decked out with cover. I guess you could throw Harvest in their also.

    BTW, this will be my first solo map. I have already co-made an A/D map with Thrym that is still in alpha and still being worked on at the moment.

    I find the idea of a multi-point KOTH map to be quite intriguing, but maybe I should save that for later.
    Thanks to everyone for all of the insightful feedback!
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  9. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Well, Viaduct does try to make the point defensible by making it an actual hill, and providing cover on both sides. I think the reason the map feels so boring comes mostly from its linearity; all routes lead to or from the point. Nucleus, Sawmill, and even Harvest were all conceived as arena maps, where the point is only meant to be traveled to as a last resort, so there are tons of alternate routes between the two sides that can be used for flanking or thwarting enemy attempts to flank.

    I guess the irony here is that Valve created a game mode where repurposing maps made for a different game mode yields better results than designing specifically for that mode.
     
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  10. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    With that in mind, I really want to see Offblast turned into a KotH. Chances of that happening from the original author are pretty much 1 to nothing.
     
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  11. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    koth_lumberyard

    But yeah I love Offblast -- I'd really love it as KOTH.

    Speaking of Viaduct's linearity, some of you may know I am working on an edit of it for competitive play. The main thing it does is add another route around the point. It looks basically like this: http://steamcommunity.com/id/yyler/screenshot/540637121918767882
     
  12. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    I have an idea of how you could implement multiple points in KOTH, taking out the linearity of the mode. Here it is:

    You have 2 neutral points that are open for capture as soon as the mission begins. They each play out like normal capture points and have the normal KOTH capture times. Each team has 8 minutes on their clocks instead of 3 minutes. When a team has captured one of the two control points, their clock decreases at a 1:1 second ratio. However, if one team has both of the control points under their control, then their clock decreases at a 2:1 second ratio.

    Example:
    Team BLU conquers one control point.
    [BLU: 8:00] goes down a second every second.
    Team BLU conquers the second control point a minute later, thus:
    [BLU: 7:00] goes down two seconds every second.
     
  13. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Could work. it'd be a good map for people who like KoTH, the only downside with having that is that people may feel torn between maps, whereas, they may have just capped a point, and run off to cap another, but then all the sudden, the point they just capped in getting capped. Its like the frustration of ninja cappin' in 5CP
     
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  14. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    I see where you are coming from, because I hate ninja capping in 5CP.

    But, I believe that the more defensive teammates will stay back (regardless of class) and the more offensive teammates will keep the push, leading to interesting and unique game play mechanics, like the idea I wanted to highlight which was constantly moving but defensible bases.
     
  15. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Ha, that's cool. I had the same idea a few months ago but I never really got around to trying it out. Looks good.