PL Hellstone 1.0.2

Millstone has been haunted, Hellstone arises from the hell!

  1. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Hellstone - Millstone has been haunted, Hellstone arises from the hell!

    Welcome to Halloween 2015! Millstone has been haunted and turned to Hellstone! This time you won't teleport into hell (a lie). You push the ghost cart into the hell! Help the friendly ghost to get there! Meet also the horrors from the past halloweens and join the fun!

    Note, Steam workshop does not load .nav files within the bsp, so if you subscribe to it and start the map with command map workshop/531384846, the npc bosses and such fail to work properly (they won't move or leave). Get separate nav file from here and put it along side the bsp in order to get everything work properly.

    Map features, to mention some:

    - Pumpkin bombs (ka-boom)
    - Spells (you're a wizard Hairy)
    - Ghosts (boo)
    - Horseless Headless Horsemann! (HHH is mad again)
    - Horseless Headless Horsemanns Headtaker (Off with ye heads!)
    - More ghosts (more boo)
    - Monoculus! (aye, the demomans eye)
    - Use the monoculus teleport to get some goodies
    - Mystery place, once you teleport using monoculus exit
    - Hell, once you kill the monoculus
    - More monoculus! (he's twice as mad)

    While i've gotten some feedback at the workshop, more the merrier is nice. Especially if there is something i can improve in it to make it more moody. Thanks.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  2. SC PL

    aa SC PL local shitposter

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    Season for creating Halloween maps are officially started

    And also map looks nice
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
  3. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Well Valve stated that they aren't going to do it so i thought why not make one and let people play atleast something new to them.
     
  4. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    Many of the Halloween props just looks scattered around instead of specifically placed. The gargoyles on that red building in one of the screenshots look very out of place.
     
  5. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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  6. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Feedback dump:
    So, couple gameplay things first off: The map feels really tight in many places, for a full server in some places I can see that this could be really chokey. Even getting out of your first yard, looks like a challenge, as there isn't many options for attackers. This carries throughout the rest of the map, and was a factor that I considered.

    In terms of aesthetics:

    You're using a LOT of props. While this isn't inherently bad, it helping with the aesthetic of your map. For example:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The props may fit with the theme of the map, but it really detracts from the overall feel of the map. I definitely think that you could tone on the props, and let architecture and geology do more talking.

    [​IMG]
    Also, this misaligned wood texture is icky.

    [​IMG]
    Those yellow particles on the far end are really distracting and do not add anything, or explain whats going on well. I think if you were going to do that, you could've chosen a better particle, or just used a normal 'no entry' sign.

    [​IMG]
    These planks (which you use in other place) are really kind of eh. They work for gameplay, I'm sure, but unsupported and perfectly straight, makes them look really weird and out of place, especially since one is resting on another. I feel like you could've improved these if you incorporated them into them into the architecture of the surrounding buildings, and not just left them as planks sitting on top of the architecture.

    [​IMG]
    This finale was a big thing that turned me off from the map. It's my opinion that I feel it's too visually noisy, and the focus (visually, and somewhat gameplay wise) isn't focused enough on the final point.

    Other things:

    • Your props, especially in the last spot, feel very scattered and just there "because this area needed a prop." Let the layout and the world brushes do the talking, and props enhance that.
    • I don't feel much of a story from this map, or at least some semblance of direction. What is this supposed to be? I know it's a millstone reskin, but I don't feel much of a mill feel.
    • I do like the use of the minecart as the payload cart. The ghost in it though, felt kind of distracting, but thats a personal opinion.
    • Tossing in the H'ween bosses is a nice touch, but I feel that with the choke points and narrowness of this map, it really just creates more of a bloodbath, than an interesting feature of the map. I feel like they were added just to add another feature to the map, not to actually enhance gameplay.
    Hope this helps and you've learned some things to help make this and future maps better!
     
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  7. Davekillerish

    aa Davekillerish Lvl O: Orange Member

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    Version # is 0.98? Alpha? Beta?
     
  8. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Very close to final. Past beta.
     
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  9. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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  10. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    Having played this a few times I'd like to leave some feedback for you.

    RED can more easily accumulate good spells during setup than BLU can. I don't think that's too great.

    The first few areas feel really grindy and the flanks aren't really enough to take care of the problem, especially since RED can get into them as well. Once B is capped (if it's capped--lots of games I play end without A or B capped) Monoculus spawns and so does the HHH? Or at least the spawn quite close together. At this point usually one team gets locked in/near/around their spawn areas, and teams stop fighting each other anymore. That's no good. Then right around the time the first Monoculus leaves, a second one spawns because ???

    Other thing is the cart is too slow. I don't know why it's so slow, but I really wish it wasn't. That's probably one reason it's so hard to push some areas--the cart can't heal you fast enough for the speed reduction to be worth it. I guess you did this to counteract the ghost spooking RED when they get too close but I'd really like to put a vote in for speeding the cart back up and doing something else, or removing the spooking mechanic entirely. It's just not fun to push it. BLU stops pushing a lot of the time.

    Most the rounds (I've played) devolve into deathmatch around the time it gets into the tunnel area before D/E. I think it's because pushing is hard/boring and there's just so much else to fight to pay attention to. 2 Monoculus', the HHH, sporadic skeletons, plus any players that filter through. It's so chaotic.

    I can't really say anything about the final area because in all my ~30 rounds, I've never played on it. BLU has pushed to the end and won, or gotten close, but it's never been a focused battle that moves through the map; just scattered fights that don't illustrate any kind of front line or overall strategy. I've capped last for my team by just running up and doing it unobstructed or seen that happen from afar maybe 6 or 7 times I think.

    Like Frozen, I don't really think the detailing really meshes that well on closer inspection. I don't really have complaints about the "What is this place?" factor like he did; I'm willing to ignore it for Halloween. But the large amount of prop usage over brushwork comments I do agree with.

    I think you could have a more fun map if you weren't doing so much. It feels like you really just crammed every Halloween gimmick into the map that you could manage, and the result doesn't really work in my opinion. I think removing spells and Monoculus would help, or at least spawn Monoculus when both teams are guaranteed to be at last instead of whatever goes on now. I also think that changing up the way the flanks work toward A and B would be beneficial. I have ideas for that if you're interested but I've already typed way more than I intended so I'm not going to say it here.
     
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  11. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Thanks tyler. I guess i should explain how the points and bosses work within the map.

    1st cp is capped: 2 skeletons will spawn from front and behind of the point.
    2nd cp is capped: HHH spawns from the house.
    3rd is capped: Skeleton king and several other skeletons will spawn around the indoor house.
    4th cp is capped: monoculus will spawn.

    Including these, there are also timed events based on the clock time within the map. When it hits midnight for the first time, skeletons will spawn around the map. When it hits midnight for the second time, monoculus will spawn. The spells near starting area for blu do not respawn, so there's only slight advantage to the red at the beginning.

    Depending how the teams progress or hold their ground, few events happen different time each round but the base game is the same. If it's a steamroll, it's very likely that the 2 monoculusses will be spawning nearly at the same time. If it's other way around, the first monoculus propably never spawns, or spawns at the same time as HHH does. Cart is slow for several reasons and you got one of them right. It's all tied to the events happening instead of freezing the cart during those and letting the timer run out. Now you can push it, atleast slowly if no one else does or bosses do not harrass you.

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and i respect that. Map can be chaotic – a lot of things can happen at the same time or at different times and that is what i was aiming for. Some like it, some dont. Main goal was to include past halloweens horrors into the map and that is what i did. To have something different for once. If this were a normal tf2 map, it propably would not be like this as it is now but it's not ment to be serious. Normal gameplay is sort of on the background, the halloweeny stuff in foreground.

    I'm not going to change lot in this map. It seems to play just like we tested it before it got into the game. I've been lurking a lot on servers watching how it goes. There are some fixes coming, like spells spawning less frequently and fixing the spell-assisted out of the map exploit but those are now coming in Valve time.
    Though i'm interested what you had in mind tyler, as i work on the original version of this map to be better than it is now while working with another new map. So do you want to send me PM or add in steam to discuss what you had in mind, if you still want to? I'm planning to include your gift box models for the original too.
     
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  12. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I'll post my suggestion later today if that's alright, and you can add me to talk about it if you want as well. I only didn't include it to avoid bombarding you with information, especially if you decided to throw the whole post out! I know I can seem rude when I write dozens of paragraphs complaining, so I was chiefly trying to avoid that. :)
     
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  13. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    Here's what I think I would do, and bear in mind I've just played the Halloween version of this with pubbies. I haven't played the regular version. Is there a regular PL or just CP?

    [​IMG]

    First is simplifying what this flank does and how it's used. This way you don't get players going the wrong way before A is capped, which seems to be a problem. You can keep red's ramp to this area if you do this, I think, because it limits how RED can be sneaky here while still requiring a strong push to cap.

    [​IMG]

    Excuse the scribbles, I was trying to match the wood tones. The idea here is to open this area up a bit, so it's more approachable. You can use this space to create a sentry spot watching A in a similar way to Borneo B, with the sentry that looks out over the bridge. Remove the intermediary wall there--it's not doing anything for vvis and simplifies player movement. Center the doorway, then...

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I think you'll have to make some changes to some of the structures to accommodate something like this, but it'd be worth it. This would work best if you lowered this room to match the height of the area on the other side of the proposed bridge.

    Here's the reasoning. Opening the building with the blu forward spawn up and creating a bridge to this walled off room should increase RED's holding power in that building, making it more important to flush out after a cap, and a more useful holding position for BLU after doing so. It focuses the fight for A in the back corner where it should be. The bridge also naturally leads players in the correct direction after leaving the forward spawn. (Right now the arrow you have is too small and hard to see in game, you should make it bigger and brighten it up if you don't end up implementing these ideas.)

    I think that this would focus the fight near the corner a bit more, with BLU players straying less toward B. Spies can still get through with the window or a similar jump route. However, a sentry positioned to watch A could probably also watch the window.

    I'd also do whatever needed to be done so that this would work:

    [​IMG]

    I was going to suggest putting some stairs over here, and then saw that there were some. But that's the first time I've noticed them!

    Anyway, I think you should move the doorway/signs so you can do this. The area is already pretty well signed. You could probably put an arrow sign in this shack rather than on the outer wall and have it work just as well. Since everything is pretty well blocked off, players will get it pretty quick--no opportunities to get lost, really. They also have the tracks to follow, one of the great things about payload and player direction. Moving the doorway and signs won't hurt you, and it allows you to make the stairs a lot more visible.

    The benefit of moving the stairs like this is that they are more visible and immediate to both teams. RED players going to A might climb them once, and then see the blocked gates and giant arrows. No big deal. BLU players taking the lower route into the area will see them and be able to use them more easily. I see this as neutral for RED and a plus for BLU. It could also engage the roof more in battle around here. I don't see it used a lot as it is, maybe this is why? Just speculation.

    Those are the only changes I saw myself actually doing. Unfortunately I don't feel like I have a great grasp for the rest of the map. I'd be interested to test the regular version and more thoroughly think about it, though.
     
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  14. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    I really don't like the spooky cart. It makes it absolutely impossible for the Defending team to win after BLU pushes it past the 3rd point, in combination with the two Monoculus.
     
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  15. Davekillerish

    aa Davekillerish Lvl O: Orange Member

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    It also makes it impossibe to juke around the cart and body block it. That is actually a pretty common playstyle.
     
  16. worMatty

    aa worMatty Repacking Evangelist

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    That's a good point, Dave.

    I thought it was a bit of a nuisance to brush past the cart as a defender and get spooked, but I didn't think anything of it as it's just an Event map and the only reason I'm there is to fulfill my Merasmission. But then you got me thinking about that final push, which is on a rollback zone and takes some time to get up the small slope. Blocking the cart on that would be fantastic. But not if it meant you couldn't shoot people and ran 25% slower.

    Still, only an Event map so I suppose it doesn't really matter as it's got spells and bosses and stuff anyway.
     
  17. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Several other people also complained about the spooking so i made a choice - I can reveal you that yesterday i submitted a patch to Valve, which will decrease the range of the cart spook area. You basically need to touch the cart in order to get spooked or pass it by really close. You don't even have to touch it in order to block the push if you don't want to.

    Also, this event version has no rollback zones so it's not really a problem.
     
  18. Davekillerish

    aa Davekillerish Lvl O: Orange Member

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    Its a good fix but its still could be better. Try only spooking players on top of the cart as thats where the ghost is and makes the most sence.
     
  19. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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