Health ammo placement - opinions...

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Sgt Frag, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Think I'm getting near the end of the alpha stage so I'm thinking more about health and ammo placement.

    For alpha I just placed a bunch of mediums around the map (one set for blu, one for red per area).
    I went through G Pit (my map is GP style) and counted.

    Basically Valve only used small and medium. Only one medium health and a bunch of smalls. Ammo was about half medium, half small.

    A has one medium health pack, and several small medium ammos.
    B has several small health and several small/medium ammos.
    C only has small health and ammo in the tunnels from A>C, B>C

    I think this is probably a good way to go as it really forces a team to have a few medics to do well.
    So I looked at Furnace Creek also as I consider that one of the best custom GP style maps and I think people generally like it too.

    I noticed YM used a lot more kits , a lot of medium healths and several small. And small/medium ammo seemed about evenly split. (fairly close to GP's)

    This probably keeps people alive on their own better, but maybe under emphasises medic/team work.

    So what are your opinions on this?

    Go with a more sparse, mostly only small health kits as Valve did. Or add more and larger health kits as YM did?
    More focus on forced medics or not?
  2. Trotim

    aa Trotim

    Positive Ratings:
    Gravelpit does not have enough pickups in my opinion. There's not really a specific way to place them but I always felt the placement pretty intuitive, you just need to have played the game to know where they could be needed. Generally it's a better idea to put small packs all around where you feel they're useful and then upgrade them when people complain about a lack of them. Players wouldn't notice or at least wouldn't complain about there being a few too many, usually.

    Also, always use the patch overlays to show where pickups spawn. Team-colored or brown doesn't matter, but please use separate patches instead of putting two pickups on one as that makes it harder to tell at a glance what actually spawns there (only ammo or health and ammo - most maps have more ammo than health pickups, naturally).

    Viaduct does a relatively good job and that map only has medium packs.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. Exist

    Exist L6: Sharp Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Placement also depends on the game type.

    For example, Arena map's (by valve) don't have much if any health or ammo. On the extreme, large, 5cp maps like Granary have health and ammo spread amongst the map.

    I guess what I'm getting at is, size of the map picks where health and ammo kits should be placed.

    Heres a dumb example. If you have a 3 cp map, and the only health and ammo was around the mid, which ever team held the mid would win the match.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  4. tovilovan

    tovilovan L6: Sharp Member

    Positive Ratings:
    I think healthkits are one of the best ways to easily balance a map. Have a chokepoint where you want attackers to have an easier time? Throw up a large healthkit and some ammo to create a natural forward base (see dustbowl stage 2). Want engis to build in a specific location? Locate ammo packs there and youll have dispenser goin' up in no time. Want a flank to be used more? Add a healthkit, medium or small, and suddenly the flank has become a major point of interest.

    There is no "how to place healtkhits" guide. Healthkits are there for us mappers to control the way our maps play. Of course they don't have the hugest impact on gameplay, but they can still make the difference that makes or breaks an area.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  5. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

    Positive Ratings:
    This is my limited health and ammo knowledge:

    1) Put it one one side of cover to give that team a tangible boost.
    (see: dustbowl 3-2, gorge A, and you'll notice theres one on the other side of cover at the first point of every single payload map.)

    2) Put it out in the open to force players to leave cover to get to it. (gives a boost to the attackers, i suppose.)
    (See: Goldrush 1-1, which is in direct opposition to...)

    3) keep it away from control points. This gives a defensive boost: wounding players and forcing them to retreat for health away from the point becomes a viable tactic.
    (Compare goldrush 1.1, a point designed to be easy for attackers, with its large health in the open, with gravelpit A and Gorge A, both of which force wounded players to retreat to a height disadvntage away from the point for their precious healing) (also, i like badlands B, with a medium health 1000+units from the battle zone, tucked in a random corner.

    4) Lure players toward fun dangerous areas (Particularly bastardly in Arena, where it's all there is)
    (See: Lumberyard, sawmill (water and sawblades) Nucleus, well, and anything with a trigger_hurt and a sense of humour)

    1) Fuck sentryguns

    2) Seriously, Fuck'em.

    3) Ammo is used for sentry placements mostly. Put ammo where you want a sentry. If you want the sentry to be unviable, make it a small one, or put it in the open, or far away from an otherwise good position. Also has the side effect of making it easier for people to hold positions without a sentry. Obviously a defensive boost.
    (See the start of every payload map, and the end of badwater basin for an example of ammo away from the sentry place.)

    4) Ammo can also be used for forcing players to retreat like 3 in the "Health" section. However, people tend to run out of ammo a lot later than health, and melee weapons mean people with plenty of health and low ammo are more likely to push on than vice versa. Still, should be considered.
    (See: Gorge A springs to mind)

    sheesh, that's the most i've typed since my English GCSE.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Positive Ratings:
    All good points.

    After thinking about it myself, mainly for a GPit style map I think I'm going to follow Valve's example but also do a bit of what YM did for Furnace.

    Most being smaller packs spread around.

    GP maps don't have as many defensive/offensive positions. They are more like 3 battle zones, but the tunnels to those zones can be 'prep zones' for attackers.

    I think more small packs spread around instead of a few bigger packs is better. It doesn't really let you camp any spots, instead you have to keep moving, pick up a little health to stay alive...

    But I think having more than GPit would actually help make it more fun, there's alot of running so more kits = less respawn. But more spread out small kits doesn't favor either team.
    Red's got setup time for dispensers and at C they are close to their resupply. Blu doesn't get the resupply advantage, but they get the 'sneak attack' advantage. If Red doesn't dig in on a point it's hard to keep.
  7. lana

    aa lana Currently On: ?????

    Positive Ratings:
    Just a side note on patches: I ended up switching to acegikmo's style, wherein blue patches mean health, white means both and red means ammo. I feel that once players catch on it becomes a cinch to find pickups even if they're not there.
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Positive Ratings:
    That's actually a pretty good idea, might have to rip it ;)
  9. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

    Positive Ratings:
    My general understanding of it so far :

    On symmetrical maps don't put health too close to the objective, or make sure it's in a disadvantageous position. Also avoid items near spawns : spawncampers can use them to keep themselves supplied and you want to avoid that : stack the odds against spawncampers with resupply lockers vs nothing. On A/D maps, spawncamping could be considered a valid strategy and accounted for in spawn design.

    Put big and medium ammo where you want to see buildings, medium and small wherever you expect a fight (basically almost everywhere but especially close to objectives), but not in the middle of it of course. Avoid big health except as a free gift to struggling attackers on A/D maps.

    The more time players spend in a given area, the more items should be there, so 5cp maps are generally more sparsely supplied than A/D maps because the former have a back-and-forth movement, whereas the later move forward more slowly, in theory.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  10. h3r1n6

    h3r1n6 L4: Comfortable Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Small healthpacks usualy are put somewhere along the way, so you pick them up as you go, or make a just a slight detour, in order to replenish some health and mitigate some of the damage.

    Same with small ammopacks, they replenish a bit of ammo to get the player ready for the next fight.

    Medium health goes to central places, where you can get to from everywhere, but not to places you would usualy hold. Just think of the healthpack below Gpit A, pretty central on that point, but you wouldn't position yourself there, unless trying to be sneaky.

    Medium ammo is similar to health as well, but you can place more. It also has an influence on sentry places, at least for pub play.

    Gravelpit C works just because there is no ammo and health on it. The attackers will usualy take the corridors into it, and while pushing in have a bit of replenishment there, or by going back to A. The defenders have to get back into their spawn for that, or use dispensers.

    The tighter and spammier your map is, the more ammo and health you can put in it. But that's not a good map :)
  11. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

    Positive Ratings: