CTF Grumble

killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
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Something the official maps all have in common is that you can't see the intel directly from a spawn door. Defenders are forced to set up away from the safety of their spawn, and so an attacker taking out said defenses and grabbing the intel means there's a good chance that they won't be contested again on their way out, if they take the right escape route. There is always at least one for the intel carrier to take that allows him to bypass enemy spawn doors.

So yes, there is a trend of placing spawns in front of intel rooms, but it's done in such a way that they aren't convenient for turtling.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
1,056
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Something the official maps all have in common is that you can't see the intel directly from a spawn door. Defenders are forced to set up away from the safety of their spawn, and so an attacker taking out said defenses and grabbing the intel means there's a good chance that they won't be contested again on their way out, if they take the right escape route. There is always at least one for the intel carrier to take that allows him to bypass enemy spawn doors.

So yes, there is a trend of placing spawns in front of intel rooms, but it's done in such a way that they aren't convenient for turtling.

In which case, if I move the spawn over to a new hallway in the building where the further spawn is, as long as it's outta the way, I should be golden. 'Cause that is NOT a long walk to the intel room.

Sawmill doesn't. Probably the reason that it's most likely my favorite stock ctf map.
It does. You bypass the spawn (at times). I count that as "behind" the spawn.

Also, ctf sawmill was really poorly put together, it was just sorta "let's make this into a ctf map because we CAN"
(But that's an opinion)
 
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worMatty

Repacking Evangelist
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Jul 22, 2014
1,257
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Sawmill was poorly put together? What makes you think that?

I think the reason spawn rooms exist on the way to the intel room is so that the defenders have a chance to recapture their intelligence as it's on its way out of the base. If players always spawned 'behind' the intelligence room, in terms of a linear path from one enemy's area to the other, then by the time they get out of spawn, they wouldn't be able to catch up with the flag carrier.

Gotta be careful with placing spawn rooms too close to objectives because some servers like to use instant or reduced respawn times.

CTF maps have multiple routes to intel, and sometimes they go past enemy spawn. That's good because it lets defenders get to the intel room quicker and it gives attackers another possible, but risky route.

Also remember how Doublecross's spawn room has an exit that drops you out in the tunnels below, to chase down any carriers taking the underground route :)
 

LeSwordfish

semi-trained quasi-professional
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Aug 8, 2010
4,102
6,597
So i only played a1 but i have some thoughts:

  • The map is very narrow. I mean, like, generally, not in specific areas. There's only one or two routes everywhere, and wherever there are two they're right next to each other.
  • It also keeps focussing itself down into arenas, so you can't flank at all. You kind of have to have five or six fights just to get to the enemy base, and none of those can be avoided.
  • It's also super long, with the main flank past the bridge being a very long flat corridor. As such, it's no use as a flank - if theres someone at the other end, you just need to charge into enemy fire.
  • The bases... i never saw a fight inside the bases, so i can't speak for them in combat, but they're really confusing. Firstly the spawns face so that you naturally turn the wrong way. Secondly, there are no arrows whatsoever. It seemed really complex before, but upon zooming out its fairly simple, just super unintuivive, with routes twisted around inside themselves. What's more, it's even more length in a map that doesn't really need it.

I think you could drop the yards with the rocks in and connect the bridge area directly to the interior of the base, and it would be far more hectic, simply because its more focussed, in terms of length. What you'd then need is less focus in terms of width - something like 2fort's pipes.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
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Well, this was by far the worst map I've ever made.

Creekwood was better than this shit.

Back to chilltower and hardcliff!
 

iiboharz

eternally tired
aa
Nov 5, 2014
857
1,291
Well, this was by far the worst map I've ever made.

Creekwood was better than this shit.

Back to chilltower and hardcliff!

No one ever said it was inherently bad, it just has issues that can always be ironed out.

Read the feedback, ask others what they have to say about it, but I can't force you to continue working on it.

There's no such thing as a perfect map, nothing will ever be perfect. In your case I think you consistently try outrageous ideas that never seem to come out so well.

Find a project you're happy to work on yourself, stick to that. Working on multiple maps at a single time can be frustrating and cause issues, especially when you're still learning to map.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: just because your initial alphas don't play well doesn't mean the map is unrecoverable. Seldom is it that an early alpha will play well. Your maps have potential but you never seem to stick to one lone project and get caught up trying to make a bunch of different maps trying a bunch of different things.

tl;dr find a map you're comfortable with and focus solely on that

Now for some direct feedback on this map:

I haven't much to say about the bases themselves since no one seems to ever get that far for it to matter.

The whole mid (between bases) has a lot of difficult sightlines, little height variation, very few routes and it just feels like one big snaking corridor. It heavily reminds me of a similarly laid out map from Halo, Danger Canyon.

EDIT: I mentioned this via the feedback plugin but it feels like a huge pushy stalemate where the stronger team will slowly push the enemy team into turtling inside their base (or at least back enough until the timer runs out) and no team will ever score any points.
 

HQDefault

...what
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Aug 6, 2014
1,056
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No one ever said it was inherently bad, it just has issues that can always be ironed out.

Read the feedback, ask others what they have to say about it, but I can't force you to continue working on it.

There's no such thing as a perfect map, nothing will ever be perfect. In your case I think you consistently try outrageous ideas that never seem to come out so well.

Find a project you're happy to work on yourself, stick to that. Working on multiple maps at a single time can be frustrating and cause issues, especially when you're still learning to map.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: just because your initial alphas don't play well doesn't mean the map is unrecoverable. Seldom is it that an early alpha will play well. Your maps have potential but you never seem to stick to one lone project and get caught up trying to make a bunch of different maps trying a bunch of different things.

tl;dr find a map you're comfortable with and focus solely on that

Now for some direct feedback on this map:

I haven't much to say about the bases themselves since no one seems to ever get that far for it to matter.

The whole mid (between bases) has a lot of difficult sightlines, little height variation, very few routes and it just feels like one big snaking corridor. It heavily reminds me of a similarly laid out map from Halo, Danger Canyon.

EDIT: I mentioned this via the feedback plugin but it feels like a huge pushy stalemate where the stronger team will slowly push the enemy team into turtling inside their base (or at least back enough until the timer runs out) and no team will ever score any points.

No... it's... it's bad...

Just. Bad.
It's done. I'm out. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.

Case closed.
 

killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
1,016
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No... it's... it's bad...

Just. Bad.
It's done. I'm out. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.

Case closed.

You do know this attitude is exactly what's preventing you from improving, right? As long as you keep running from criticism and abandoning projects as soon as you hear negative feedback, you're never going to learn anything...
 

worMatty

Repacking Evangelist
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Jul 22, 2014
1,257
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You put a lot of work in to making that map. Abandoning it is a waste of time. No-one during the single testing session said that you should delete the map or that it wasn't worth working on. Haven't you seen the feedback on the maps that are just unplayable? The authors are told that they should stop mapping, or delete their work, or that they are doing everything wrong. Pretty negative stuff.

Put the feedback in to two categories. One category will be visual and logic tweaks like lighting and spawn room doors. The other category will be layout: things like altering brushwork, opening up new routes, chopping up sections of the map to make the whole thing shorter. Focus on the layout stuff first and have a think about what you should change. Forget about your original idea and don't focus too much one on or two pieces of feedback. Do some planning and really try to understand the problems. Take the feedback seriously.

As iiboharz says, focus on one map at a time. You can't produce quality work when you aren't focused. Play test, and play test some more. Take time to think about the changes before you implement them. Don't just start messing about in Hammer a few hours after you upload the map. It takes time to produce your best work.

If you are anxious to detail, you could make a basic map to practice with. Or adopt an orphaned map. That will satisfy your itch and will raise your standard for when you come to move a map in to beta.

If people leave constructive criticism, it's because they want to help you understand what they don't like about something so you can improve it.

EDIT: I was reminded of a post Valve made about the problems they encountered during the building of Gorge. You might be interested in it: http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=8124
 
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Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
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Nov 14, 2009
4,694
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Sawmill doesn't. Probably the reason that it's most likely my favorite stock ctf map.
Neither does Turbine; the spawn and intel are reached through two completely different entrances, even if they're also connected to each other. And I'd argue that even Double Cross is an edge case since the actual spawn rooms are set so far back and on a different level.

I don't know how people can stand to play on Sawmill though. It's always been an even bigger turtle fest than any other map except maybe 2fort whenever I've been on it, thanks to the two very narrow entrances.
 

Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
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Aug 7, 2014
1,241
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Plus you can bypass the spawns in Double Cross completely via the sewers.
 

Fantaboi

Gone and one day forgotten
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Mar 11, 2013
892
1,050
No... it's... it's bad...

Just. Bad.
It's done. I'm out. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 dollars.

Case closed.

You need to finish a map HQ, don't start from scratch anymore. You're not learning anything because you're not doing anything. Learning mapping is more about adapting to crticism than drawing something up constantly.