Gravel Rocket

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by cyked, May 19, 2010.

  1. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    In a gravel pit where both RED and BLU have been searching for the precious resource, there has been a recent fuel shortage. The trucks can no longer carry gravel from the pit to the local train station. It appears great minds think alike as both RED and BLU have decided to solve this problem through the use of jet propulsion. The newest product from Mann Co., the Gravel Rocket, is the fastest way to ship gravel across the world. Both companies have become increasingly greedy and want the entire pit and both rockets all for themselves!

    Special Thanks:
    Booj - Mapping Resource Pack
    Acumen - Gravel Rocket Model
    TF2M Steam Chat - Inspiration
    Cyclopsided - Idea Bouncer Guy
    Misanthrope - Muse
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2010
  2. DjD

    DjD L5: Dapper Member

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    hi,
    the layout looks good so far.
    one thing i noticed just by looking at the 3rd screenshot: those two balconies at the middle cap point seem to be very sniper friendly and there is no real cover on them.
    if this is intended, then alright, but i just stumbled over it.
     
  3. FiLi

    FiLi L4: Comfortable Member

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    As long as you don't want aggregate back, I like how this map is coming.
     
  4. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    reminds me of fastlane. :woot:
     
  5. Seba

    aa Seba DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD

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    The last point looks like it'd be a pain to get past the Hydro barriers; I suggest doing something about that.

    In other notes, yay, ramps!
     
  6. Geal

    Geal L4: Comfortable Member

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    First things first, shrink the last two points. They are WAAAAAY too big, both horizontally and vertically. The buildings are very tall, making the players feel small and making the buildings feel empty. Graza wrote a great guide on scale in TF2, I would HIGHLY suggest you read it carefully, then redo the last two points to more accurately fit recommended lengths and distances. http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=12605

    Now, specifics. Let's start with the second point. It's way too big, there's no good sentry spots. The first impulse is to build in the corner near the cp (can be seen in the second of your screenshots), but attackers coming from the opposite side can easily out-range it. If you set up on the opposite wall or on the balcony, then attackers coming in from the raised platform can out-range it. This frustrates engineers, and forces a team to have multiple engineers to defend a single point. Shortening the room by moving the wall opposite the upper entrance closer to the point could help with this issue. Also, when you do place health and ammo (really, there's no reason not to do this. It takes five minutes.) make sure you place them in areas where you want to encourage engineers to build - because they will likely build around them.

    The last point is worse. First, it has the same issue as the second point - any sentry position can be out-ranged, and the sentries that cover the doors can't cover the point (and vice-versa). Moving the respawns and the control point platform much closer to the building will help with this, or blocking off the middle and forcing attackers to wrap around the sides. Also, shrink it a bit horizontally - attackers taking the far flank can easily out-range sentries. Adding some cover will help with this problem, but it is NOT a sure-fire way to fix. Throwing in tons of cover will just make your map feel cluttered and bloated.
    Furthermore, attackers have WAY too many entrances into the final point. Two main doors on the ground level, one smaller flanking door on the ground, two in the upper deck, and one far flanking path. SIX! SIX paths that blu can take. Not only is that far too many to defend, but it splinters the teams up. You want to keep teams together and focused, to promote teamwork. Usually, attackers have one main route and two side routes (usually one which flanks around the main route, and another that flanks farther in), or two equally used routes. Cutting off two, or heck, even one of the bottom doors (get rid of the smaller one) would help this, along with removing one of the upper paths. The far flank is okay.

    I would comment on the middle point and the paths between the points, but unfortunately almost all combat happened in the first/last two points.

    Also, this is why you always have alltalk on during early tests like this: the game updated, rendering recorded demos useless.
     
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  7. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    Thank you for the suggestions, I will definitely look into changing the size of those points. I am planning on taking out that small door on the lower level and the upper window. Hopefully adding in the health and ammo will allow more fighting to take place at mid.

    EDIT: Also, the update did nothing to the demos. They are fine.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2010
  8. redcommunism

    redcommunism L2: Junior Member

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    My suggestion is that you mess around with some of the details. Cliffs would not come to a random halt and expose sky behind it. Instead, have them taper off, then add in props, perhaps trees, or large buildings. Also, take a look at texture blending tutorials. It will make your textures much more appealing and professional.
     
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  9. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. I will have to take a look at those tutorials. I'm also going to work a lot more on the cliffs appearing "natural."

    Just a quick side note though, do you really think trees would fit in a gravel pit themed map?
     
  10. Boylee

    aa Boylee pew pew pew

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    Don't do this yet. It's good advice in the long run, but aesthetics should not be the priority at this early stage.

    First things first, does the layout work? Test it in a few games, identify things that are problematic and fix them one at a time. Don't make a multitude of sweeping changes in one go unless you're certain they'll work.

    Then, test it some more. Once you're sure the layout is working then sure, pile on all the details and the fancy textures you want, but believe me, no-one wants to play a pretty map that has a terrible layout, so get that working first.

    I agree that a few of the points look a little open and could probably do with having the fat trimmed off or a few areas filled in with small ancillary buildings or other miscellaneous cover.

    My initial knee-jerk reaction is that the middle point is crying out for something along these lines:
    [​IMG]

    Of course that's an initial suggestion based on just looking at screenies, I've not loaded the map so I have not much clue about scale. It gives you an idea of what I mean about adding a bit more cover though.

    Personally, no. Not unless they're dead and dried up.
     
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    Last edited: May 20, 2010
  11. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    I had a run through this myself, some problems I noticed:

    [​IMG]

    From here I could see into all the exits, bar 1.

    [​IMG]

    It was the same on the cliffs at the other side, either clip them off or add more cover in front of the doors.

    I feel I should be able to get ontop of here It feels small enough to warrant it, I dunno.
    [​IMG]

    I had to jump up this, make it smaller or add stairs.
    [​IMG]

    Quite a large sightline here
    [​IMG]

    Looking through this window, a couple of snipers could look down bath spawn exits.
    [​IMG]

    This room confused me, it's a resupply, but not a spawn as far as I could tell, and it's open all the time? I dunno.
    [​IMG]

    Needed to jump up here as well, add stairs or make the ledge smaller.
    [​IMG]

    Overall I found it very confusing inside. To the second point you have seven entrances in total. It feels cramped in some areas, open in others. I think you should maybe try and change up the second point to make that building a lot simpler. I also noticed a lack of height difference around the immediate control points apart from cp 2, cp 1 was kinda there, but mid felt very flat.

    The dynamic door prop is thrown about everywhere in your map, so much so that I couldn't tell whether the door was a forward spawn or a legit pathway to the points, try and make the spawn doors and the doors in direct routes, different to help players mobility about the map. It causes a little confusion.

    The map looks like a good start and I hope to play it soon with some people on the server ;)
     
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  12. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    bump for impromptu run today
     
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  13. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Really awesome. Just a few problems on our first test:

    -winning team respawn time is insanely short. It should never be shorter than 5s imo
    -final CP is too hard to take. Long cap time, massive height advantage, close proximity to spawnroom are all factors
    -1st forward spawn is too close to CP2 to allow teams to reenter it. Make the doors one-way or move the spawn room
    -Spawn rooms should be oriented so players are facing in the direction they need to go. Signs won't be enough.
    -Very promising :D
     
  14. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    It was a fun test but I had a few problems.

    -Mid felt dull and flat
    -2nd felt like a granary clone
    -Last was a bit crazy being up so high.
     
  15. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    2nd is really uninspired. Everything from the point to the doors leading to 1st is straight out of granary and it makes me sad.

    Overall scale of mid seemed too large with doorway scale being too low (reeeeally hard to get through them)

    You're leaking too http://www.interlopers.net/errors
     
  16. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Use AddTime instead of SetTime to reset the clock, so the announcer will announce the captures.
     
  17. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    Thanks I was going to ask you about that today but forgot.
     
  18. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    The map felt pretty good, even though the three separate spawn areas felt pretty unnecessary. Also, The cap times on 2/4 were pretty long.
     
  19. Geal

    Geal L4: Comfortable Member

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    Make it so teams can't enter spawns they no longer have access to. Taking the second point was pretty annoying when people would run into the spawn that's right there.
     
  20. Boylee

    aa Boylee pew pew pew

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    [​IMG]

    No post thanks? Boylee is a sad panda. :(
    Looks good though. ;)