Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by DannyRand, Jul 25, 2014.
This map is being designed with the 32-man public server environment in mind.
This is a pretty cool map! Especially for someone new to multiplayer mapping. I really like some of the layout, particularly the last point- it's pretty clever and interesting, with several heights to fight from. There are a few issues, though. It's a bit small- the distance between points isn't very long, and often there's only one route. In many cases, there isn't much to it. Not much cover, not much alternate routes or heights. Look at how valve designs their levels- a good rule of thumb is that there should be three routes to everywhere, except places you want to be really tricky to get to, where there should be two. Some of this map, particularly the first point, is really just one large open space.
I think the basic layout of the map is really clever, and has some really fantastic ideas, you just need to make it bigger, and then fill in the extra space with stuff. Small buildings, side routes... stuff, you know. Look at badwater, and all the things that are away from where the cart goes
Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately haven't had much free time this week but should be able to push to A2 tonight/tomorrow morning.
I think based on the two playtests I've done, I will add a ramp/stairs on the right of point 2, to allow attackers (all classes) on top of the point. As well as opening up the left side building - not completely but just like a side railing area, give a bit more play space on that point.
As for Blu spawn, my current idea is to take it and move it opposite the first point, raised up so you actually go somewhat downhill to the point. As well as widening the area and adding a side flank route. Thinking somewhat like Upward/Hoodoo does the first point.
In terms of making it bigger, I think the spawn changes will add a bit of room to first. Aside from that I think more playtests are in order. After the first two I didn't think it was too short, but an hour of play doesn't say much.
Hard to really conceptualize without PSD/Hammer (at work) but wanted to get some notes down so im prepared for tonight/tomorrow morning when I update.
Didn't get to put any real time into this yesterday due to OT and not much into it today either. However I did manage to make the desired changes (to a point). As evidenced in the two new screenshots.
Updated Blu spawn
- Added a roofed area on the left of Blu spawn. Provide cover for Blu and vertical engagements for both teams.
- Cleaned up the sloppy geometry throughout the old Blu area. To be pre-detail, finalized with A4.
- Added a couple signs for Blu.
- Added minor geometry at first point
- Added small hp/ammo packs at first point
- Updated clipping around boxes/crates
Unfortunately i'm working 6 days a week and my hours haven't lead to any impromptus. Hopefully Goldblum can get some loving when im not around?
Somewhat larger update thanks to the impromptu today. Hopefully addressing some of the bigger game play issues.
Updated Red First Spawn
- Added drop down flank route behind spawn. Allows red to get to 1st faster and provides blu another flank route
- Full HP + Ammo
Updated first point geometry
- Expanded left side railings, significantly cutting LoS into spawn.
- Expanded corner building. Blocking LoS from point 2
- Added an "under" route through the building
- Added a bit of geometry on the first point building
- Medium Ammo + medium HP
- Increased the lights strength - may update more
- Added a sign outside red spawn
- Added nobuild to "deathpit" area, hopefully fixing tele traps
- Moved the final path_track to be more in line with explosion
So I watched the demo from yesterdays game day and barring last, I was happier with the layout changes.
That said, I never realised how much last actually was like Badwater, I was worried it was too much like Escarpment. Having watched that demo though, I can totally see the similarities.
Anyone have suggestions on how to change last to be both: fun for the defenders and less Badwater-ry?
Thanks for the feedback and hopefully next time im not stuck working the weekend and can actually play!
This hasn't been shelved, I've just been stupidly busy. Hope to get some time in on this in the coming week as I switch onto night shifts (yay 24/7 Fifa support).
Just came up with a quick mock up at work:
Hope to get an updated version out this weekend at the latest. If anyone has suggestions regarding my proposed changes to last, the feedback is much appreciated.
Updated to A5.
Major geometry overhaul on final capture area.
Updated Red first spawn area
- Backside is now a building rather than wasted space. Provides a path to final.
- Added another light + sign(s)
I think in my efforts to revamp last, I may have gone overboard. We'll have to see how it plays. Likely scale last down in future updates.
As always, feedback is appreciated. Thanks!
Replaced majority of place holder lighting.
Updated final with proper signage + light(s).
Updated Blu first spawn
- Right side of spawn is extended. Additional raised exit provided.
- Updated lighting
Small update with some tweaks/fixes based on impromptu yesterday night.
In my sleep-deprived urgency to add some performance tweaks and recompile with proper lighting, I totally fubar'd my map hours before the game day on Saturday. So with all that in mind, I went in and fixed the path_track & door. Then decided to do some other things:
Added some place holder textures for ideas. To be replaced in future.
Update to first area:
- Added geometry to curb LoS
- Updated lighting in Blu Spawn.
- Fixed doorway and first point path_track.
- Open building left of the point, adding another flank route via windows and small ledge.
- Performance tweaks.
Update to second point area:
- Added "tower" section to stairway to further alter LoS/Engie spots.
- Performance tweaks.
At this point I really need to get some testing going and being on night shift doesn't help. If anyone is able to give the map a quick run through, that'd be nice!
- Added lighting and more performance tweaks.
Another huge revamp of last point. No longer a large death pit but two smaller ones. Shrunk the entire area approaching last and revised the flank route to be tighter and easier to defend.
- Red spawn times shortened to 14 seconds.
- Red final spawn revamped.
- Added signs
- Removed right flank route. To be altered in future update.
- Added further displacements and clipping tweaks.
- Updated Blu Spawn.
Grated fence at last has not been properly clipped, this is fixed but I haven't got time to re-compile/upload at this point.
Hopefully I can settle on a last that actually plays well with this one. I believe I've addressed some of the awful issues my previous version had. New last is basically redone, I kept the general U-Turn style layout and thought the ramp up before last was nice so that's still present. There shouldn't be any major death pit abuse now, though they are still present, just not as overboard as it was. LoS has also been extremely reduced. Not sure if there is enough ammo and health, but Red spawn is so close I figured less is more at this point.
Really want to get this tested as I think I may have finally figured out how to handle last. As always feedback is very much appreciated. Thanks!
Added a door in the mid building that closes after 2nd point is capped, preventing red from flanking easily from last.
- Updated clipping
- Added some awkward looking buildings out of boredom at work. Will see what happens there.
- Updated some displacements
- Fixed some spawn trigger size issues. Should be able to build right outside the door at all spawns now.
- Removed old geometry, place holder fence/clipping for time being.
Update basically to add the door to prevent red flanks. Hopefully I can get some feedback on last and still a bit concerned about the size.
Fixed Red final spawn doors - open sideways now.
Red first now has a third spawn door.
-Updated the flank door to be more obviously blocked off.
-Minor detailing of Blu first area, wip
RL sucks. Should get more time in on this now though!
Some minor updates and I started to do some small detailing. Still not sure where this is going so a lot of it will likely change. Also compiled on fast just to get this out there, so there is some wonky lighting (the track mostly). Please talk a look, thanks frands.
I personally really enjoyed the multiple paths and their usefulness. I feel that is made the map even more fun to play.
- Moved the cart forward a bit. Path hasn't changed yet but likely will.
- Opened up the wood above the left drop down path.
- Added grated metal above ^^ to open up the visibility a bit more.
Revamp of last point.
- Red Spawn in 2 locations now.
- Added a small "tower" building in the right corner.
- Opened up Red's original spawn location, main floor is now open to both teams.
- Opened up the buildings a bit more and removed the catwalk/clipping to prevent jumpers
- Opened up the visibility on the left building.
- Added some minor details to hopefully direct players to said building.
- Added a roll back zone on the hill after point 2 before point 3.
- Totally removed the flank route from final as it's now pointless with updated changes and wasn't utilized anyway.
- Big lighting boost. Most area's should be a lot brighter, some are still dark but this is on purpose right now and will likely change in future depending on feedback.
- Decreased Red Spawn times on CP 1/2
- Clipping updates, still a large WIP
- Added some more hint brushes, again a WIP
Thanks to some great feedback from both the game day and that impromptu (<3). I made some pretty big changes in this past update. Glad to see people are starting to enjoy the map.
I separated Red last spawn into two locations, i'm thinking that putting 1 spawn location on the top floor was a bad idea and I will likely change that but I may see how it plays out first. The possibility for Blu to put a sentry nest on the main floor would be difficult to do but really wreck that spawn point for red, so we'll see.
Also, I'm pretty sure I forgot to clip the stairs at the back of the second point building. Uh oh.
We played pl_goldblum_a11 in the gameday, and I wanted to give some extended feedback based off the feedback notes we left.
The main problems of the map in my opinion would be that:
1) B point is not fun to defend.
2) C point is very tough to defend.
3) D's upward stretch is very hard to attack.
1: B point is not fun to defend.
B point is not fun to defend because the only reliable place would be to stand near it, the only safe place near it that controls it is the areas right above it, and the areas right above it have little control over the preceding sections, making it difficult to control without awkwardness.
Defending from atop of this ramp is where I mean, and I feel like I have little control up here because the flanking route is just across that gap - which is almost too far away for me to trap players with. And I'm not going to stand on that concrete balcony on my right due to the powerful sniper lines from the A point area.
I guess looking at pl_badwater's 2nd point, the defending section is very safe and out of sniper lines, and it has good control over the point, so you get - as a defender - lots of time and safety to maneuver around and experiment with different methods of defending the area - which is fun.
I'd recommend blocking out the side of this concrete balcony from the A snipers, and making this location a good place for the red engineers to set up. You can experiment with a new building type, with maybe putting a window in there for A snipers to get some sight into it (but I'd suggest little or zero), and with maybe blocking off the dev brush window to the left of this bit:
The other side of this balcony area, the other side of the building - the flank - I mean, I never even saw because it was too dangerous to dwindle away from right overtop of the point.
2: C point is very tough to defend.
I'd say the front of the C building was okay - the ramp leading upwards towards it, but what was very difficult to control, as a defender, was the immediate area of the control point. This was due to difficulty in backing up the rear - which was very open to snipers and whatever else is inside of the C interior.
The area is kinda awkward and seems hard to hold from an objective stance. You've got the under-routes which completely bypass the control point and give good access for blue's to the next area entirely, the reds don't have any other option than to approach the point from behind, and that route is very long and open and tough to get out of the way of shots if you need to do that.
There was also the area just behind (outside) and to the left (from red perspective) of C point, where there was a gap in the fence which looked down at B point, which I never found use for since the attackers coming at C point never seemed to be down there, and I'd only use it as a route towards them if I wanted to push them out. It would be cool if you could do something interesting-er with this area like: filling the gap in the fence with a wall, raising a platform so defenders feel safer (because they are aiming slightly down at the control point area), and from there adding a doorway into C room so defenders have a more strict guideline on where to defend the point? (I donno, experiment).
Otherwise, I'd recommend alleviating the 'I feel like I'm in danger from everything overflowing off of C point' feeling by maybe giving red players an easier way to get out of trouble in this section. Maybe even with the idea I suggested, extending its back (of the platform) towards the defenders so they can easily hop onto it from farther away and make their way towards the point? Again, because of the awkwardness of the under-area it's a bit difficult to make suggestions. I didn't really use those under areas much for defending this section, nor attacking it since it capped so quick, so I can't judge their significance.
3: D's upward stretch is very hard to attack.
This was touched upon in the feedback a bit, but was probably the major bad thing in the map since it stalemated every round. It was difficult to flank the defenders atop the hill since every route the attackers had upwards was visible from atop the hill. It was also difficult to stay alive around the cart since there was no way to get out of the way quickly (there's the chasm thing, but that's a death pit). It would be cool if you could give us a reliable way to jump back behind the cart (also give the cart people some defence there with some short walls to at least crouch behind and out of sniper sights) and maybe work our way up towards that left flank (from red defense perspective).
The other section past the house, working our way upwards towards the aforementioned flank, is probably what Auwi meant by 'a mess' since it's difficult to stick with teammates here - the ground is covered in obstacles that could interrupt easy passage.
I'd recommend cleaning some of that up a bit, and making it somehow more fun for attackers to go through there - like blocking the sight from atop the hill off totally, or pushing back the right ramp (from this new screenshot perspective) towards the red base, so that blue feels more comfortable using it both as a shield and a way to regroup with teammates. The other sightlines would probably fix themselves since we're solving the major issues of the points and dynamics would just change on their own.
Apart from that, there was the dark areas of the map: the buildings near B point, and the chasm cliff edge sections under and around the hill towards D - which was very dangerous (all pinpointed in feedback).
Egan you absolutely rule!
I'm about to head off to bed but I have some changes in mind/in progress that address some of those and a much better idea of where to go with the others now thanks to you fine gentlemen.
Also in regards to Red last, the respawn time should have been longer. I apparently input 7 instead of 9 to the timer after Blu capped 3rd. So that's already been changed and should on it's own be a big nerf to Red's ability to hold final.
- Extended left building. Adding more cover and additional sentry positions out of immediate LoS from 1st.
- Added medium HP/Ammo
- Added/increased lighting
- Activates Blu forward spawn once capped.
- Moved forward to be closer to final.
- No longer linked to forward spawn.
- Widened the left side building to provide more room for Red to defend
- Added bridge to the window, allowing all classes access to the immediate roof outside said building.
- Added/Increased lighting
- Increased lighting in Blu forward spawn. Also moved some spawn points around to encourage using the upper exit
- Added small building on far right flank route. Providing additional cover for Blu.
- Small HP/Ammo
- Added cover/railings to death pit area
- Increased lighting all around death pit and underside flank route.
- Significant increase to Red respawn timer on last
Took some of that feedback and ran with. B should be easier to defend, specifically as a Demo or Engineer. I've extended the concrete building out a bit and added hp/ammo. Right now there is no real LoS from 1st and only way up is via the bridge, back or side entrances. May need to add an immediate ramp/stairs like the right side but we'll see how it plays first.
Something I had been undecided on for a long time, I finally said screw it and did. I moved the 3rd point further down the track and linked Blu's forward spawn to 2nd point. Not sure if I want to keep it like this or try and rework the original 3rd point location but have a feeling that this will play better overall.
Red now has longer respawn times on final (whoops at last week). I've also added a building to Blu's flank route on the right that should provide decent cover and incentive to actually use the route. Lighting should be a much better indicator of the death pit edges now as well. Lighting is a never ending wip right now but I hope the current lighting is much better for navigation at least.
Added a new Blu forward spawn. Just behind 2nd point.
Big lighting improvements.
Small optimization adjusts
Added a new forward for Blu. Original is still used but once third point is capped.
Pretty happy with this change and the adjusted spawn timers. Will have to see how it plays but think i'm about ready to call it layout wise and start really working.
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