Discussion: Possible Impromptu Raincheck Thread

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by Okrag, Mar 2, 2011.

  1. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

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    The idea was thrown around in chat the other day of a thread where mappers who don't frequent chat could submit their maps and have them basically put on a list of maps to put into impromptus. I think this is a good idea but certain details need to be ironed out and that is what this thread is for. Here are some things that I was thinking but want your opinions on:
    • Renew your map each week. We can't just have a backlog of maps adding up over time so I think a renewal would help with this.
    • Map limit for impromptus. We don't want each impromptu to have 8 maps, I need help deciding the limit.
    • Map queue. This one is pretty set in stone and doesn't need work. We don't want the same first maps being played over and over again so a rotating queue of maps would probably work best.
    If you have any extra ideas I would love to hear them as well.
     
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  2. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    A map limit of 4 is probably best. 3 is ideal for an impromptu, but I think 4 is an absolute maximum.

    We also need to think about how much precedent this list will take over maps submitted on the spot. IF the queue already has 4 maps in it, then it's not really an impromptu anymore, because we know that at some point we WILL play those maps. Maybe have 2 from the queue and 2 from chat, changing the values in account of whatever is available?
     
  3. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I would make sure to point out it is for people who don't normally hang around. That in itself should reduce the need for a limit, as it should only be one or two maps extra to tack on, or to simply get enough to be worth it in the first place.
    edit: to elaborate based on what nik said, I don't think this should, or was intended to be, in place of the chat. But only and always a source for "additional" maps.

    However, I fear it may simply become an alternative to gameday threads if people feel it's just another "throw it in and it will be tested" kind of thing.
     
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  4. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    I don't want to sound snooty or anything, but I think that's the benefit of hanging around in the chat.

    I'm not saying people who predominately hang around in the forums are doing anything wrong, I just think they're two sides of the same coin. I rarely get my map tested on gameday, if I want something tested, I'll usually try and get an impromptu together.

    I like the aspect of being able to make an impromptu happen with whoever is there, and that even though they usually start out with two or three maps, whoever else wants to test theirs can (if they have donator this is waay more likely to happen) get their map tested too.

    I'm not in favor of this, even though it' considerate, because I'm worried that we'll be stuck with a long log of maps that we have to go through to get to the impromptu maps people started the impromptu to play.

    In conclusion: I think if you like to hang around the forums more than the chat, be aware of when gameday is going to happen, and go for the thread. If you stick around the chat more often, hop on the impromptu train when it comes to the station :p

    EDIT:
    This is what I really don't want to have happen.
     
  5. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

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    Having your map tested in a regular impromptu would move you down on the queue, so that might help with people who normally hang around submitting to it and the people who organize impromptus would always have their maps played first seeing as they are organizing it so that isn't really a problem.
     
  6. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    • Sounds fair.

      I'd say 4. Or even 3 but that's probably not enough. It seems to me people start leaving noticably during the third map. It can vary, though, a truely good map will retain people more while a pretty bad one will make them flee.

      Questions, though : what about uploading maps to the server ? During gamedays, hosts take care of it, for impromptus, it's a little more be a donator/veteran or hope there is an admin who is on the chat and not AF.
      What about timing ? Obviously EU people will have different preferences from East coast US people, West coast US people, Australians, etc...
     
  7. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    3 minimum 5 maximum.

    Impromptu's fill up when the chat is full and the need for extra maps is only for people who time impromptu's poorly, such as directly after a gameday or in the early hours of the morning when it's impossible to get a reasonable player count anyway.

    Bringing impromptu's to the forums doesn't really solve any problems and makes impromptu's less impromptu if the list creates events in itself; but a map or author list would still be useful to track an individuals use of gamedays. I say this mostly because 50% of the maps that get submitted into gamedays were played the previous week whilst other maps/authors have to sit out because they didn't manage a slot quick enough. Probably because they don't frequent the community frequently enough (IE practically every other hour).

    Impromptu's are for people who need frequent testing and where gamedays arn't enough for either the speed of the map's development or quality of the testing/feedback is inappropriate. I think it's pretty simple to say if you didn't/cannot get a slot in a gameday it's not much to ask someone to visit the chat and request a test, there's usually at least 2 other (chat-regular) authors who are willing to jump on the wagon. If you arn't willing to jump into a steam chat room that you don't even need to registor to then you can't want/need your map tested that badly. Many of us have gone further by joining tens of multiple forum communities and groups in order to get our maps tested by a wider player base.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  8. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    Just so I get the official word on this: is it alright for other people (non-admins) to upload my map for an impromptu? Various people have said different things, some were willing to do it, others said there was some policy against doing that and only admins could upload other people's maps (which would make sense because that's the encouragement to buy a VIP pass).

    So, is it okay for this to happen once in a while? Sorry if this is slightly off topic.
     
  9. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I don't want a list of impromptu maps. What I want is for maps to not get played every gameday, even if they've been updated, unless the author skips a game day. For example, if I get cp_desertion_a10 on the Sunday game day, I think I should be disallowed from throwing it on the Wednesday game day, even if I made a11 or b1, unless the gameday isn't filling.

    The real issue I see here is just that gamedays are the same maps a lot of the time, updated or not, and you get newcomers who don't check the site constantly getting shut out, which sucks. They often don't understand the impromptu system and it's a chore to explain it.

    If anything, impromptus should be left for VIPs, and game days should just be more selective in rotation.
     
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  10. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    I'm objected to this simply because the author would not be participating in the test. This typically is not necessary as they can check post-feedback related information, but that's the entire purpose of it being impromptu--the author is present and willing to test spontaneously. Any kind of raincheck method destroys the purpose of having a test on the spot. Impromptu testing eliminates wait and scheduling, which sometimes can take several days before a test happens. Futhermore, no one is asking people to hang around in chat to get their maps tested via impromptu--if someone were to simply show up and ask for an impromptu, I would schedule it, given that the maps are uploaded and ready. But it goes further than that, impromptus are typically available for those people who are more active in the community by being in the chatroom, which I believe should be rewarded.

    If you ask me, the effectiveness of getting maps tested via impromptu during the duration of this contest period so far has been greater than scheduled gamedays--they've been more frequent, and have allowed the authors to make changes and fixes at a greater rate, because they're not waiting around for scheduled events. If a real issue is at the heart of why this thread exists, it's because the efficiency of the scheduled gamedays is not good enough, therefore pointing fingers at the better testing model, which is our impromptu tests. Maybe the scheduling method for gamedays should be re-evaluated instead.

    I'm also opposed simply because there are things you experience while testing your map that you don't get just watching a demo or looking at the feedback. Getting your map thrown into a test while you're not there is so lacking to me I don't know why people bother a lot of the time.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  11. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I think this is a good idea, but does need to be tweaked and monitored.

    Something for me to ask is, who would run them? Just whenever people want an impromptu, they choose a host? How will announcements be made if its like midnight and no admins are on? What if the map isn't uploaded, will the person who generates the list upload?


    Also, Rexy, that was your 1337 post. Just sayin.
     
  12. skinnynerd

    skinnynerd L2: Junior Member

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    How about, if you post but don't get into the gameday, your map gets uploaded anyway. This simple action would prevent a lot of annoyances that I find myself having...

    What would also be nice is a server rotation of maps that were rejected from the gameday. If you want an impromptu to run your map, you just nominate it. So we do events that are just "impromptu", and people agree on the next map at the end of each map. However, I don't know what sort of scripting is necessary for this to work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  13. Mr. Wimples

    Mr. Wimples L6: Sharp Member

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    As someone who doesn't hang around the forums a lot, this does seem interesting. But wouldn't this idea make impromptus cease to be impromptus? I, as new as I may be, have always seen impromptus as if 3 or 4 people are hanging around chat and are wanting to see some quick feedback on a map, an impromptu is called and feedbacks are had. But if this list thread comes to be how exactly will "impromptus" be called? Would they be scheduled? Seems to me like gameday schedules with this type of list would benefit most. Like I said, I normally don't lurk the forums all day and find it very difficult to get a map of mine into a gameday. The sole way I've been able to get feedback is by popping in chat and asking if an impromptu is brewing, or if not, I ask for one. This whole impromptu rotation thing seems to be a shaky idea at best but if it does happen they should be called "mini-gamedays" or something of the like.
     
  14. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    Agree with this 100%.

    Your map didn't make it into the next game day? Okay, you reserve priority for the one after.

    That's ideal.
     
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  15. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    That's not entirely a good idea. As Okrag already stated, we don't want a back log of maps waiting to be tested and there's no garauntee the map hasn't already been updated already if it's waiting in a list.

    When i run gameday's, at least one if not two of the maps are requested to be updated with newer versions, a period of ~24 hours. This is a real pain in the arse when i've organised the event by sunday morning only then to have to re-faff about for half an hour before the event runs.

    I've only rejected maps a couple times due to specific regulars hogging slots each week, but usually it isn't necassery as the event fills up with the correct amount of requests as slots available. Recently however, this has not been true. I'll probably have to start reinforcing this rule, that new maps/authors get priority over those making weekly requests.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  16. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I just mean the author gets priority sign up for the next game day. Doesn't have to be the same map.
     
  17. Okrag

    aa Okrag Wall Staples

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    This system is already in place.

    And Rexy, I'm not pointing fingers at impromptus for being less efficient, the thing is having gamedays more frequently is problematic and impromptus are more frequent and the purpose of this is to open up impromptus for more people. This isn't meant to phase impromptus out for a new system or anything. Sure, attending an event allows for more feedback, in fact if a system were in place it would probably be a good practice to see about contacting the author if their map was being played so they could be there. The thing is though for the reasons you state it would be foolish to not attend any of your tests, but this isn't meant to replace attending your tests. This is for people who aren't really able to get to tests at all.
     
  18. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    When i originally threw out this idea, it was when we were not testing regularly. My idea was, whenever we needed another map for an impromptu, we opened this thread, and picked the one that was posted first that hadnt been played. Simple. Mostly it was for the benefit of people who are unable to be in the chat when most are being organised (seems sometimes that 80% happen on US time) and/or couldnt get a spot on the gamesday threads.

    Probably, within a few weeks, the backlog we currently have will go down, but right now we have a huge pile of new maps, and new versions of old maps, awaiting testing. People who are less in the community- less often in chat, dont refresh the forums every forty seconds, etc etc, who often have new maps, miss the boat for testing, aren't around for impropmptu's, and simply dont have the opportunities for feedbck as everyone else. Which can keep them out of the community, and viscious cycle blah blah blah...

    Wheras with this, they can post a map and get a knowingly less-good test. They dont get as great a testing experince as being first in the gamesday, or playing in their own map, but its better than nothing.

    Another idea that's come to me is a reshuffling of the way we do impromptu's. Instead of scrape four maps from people in chat, then announce, then start playing, we get two maps, start playing them, and send out an Event saying "US Impromptu; looking for maps!" Anybody on steam can join the chat or the game and say "Hey i've got a map looking for testing", and we can throw them on at the end.
     
  19. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    This. A centralised list would also be far easier way to contact people.
     
  20. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    I agree with Rexy, every time I have pushed to get an impromptu we usually have 4-5 authors present who are willing to test within an hour of my asking. So far I haven't seen a lack of maps to qualify for a decent test period.

    Gamedays do get bogged down fast, so I've been trying to not post in those threads since I have donator, just relying more on the impromptu to get tests in and leaving space for others.

    If we get a backlog of impromptu maps it seems like present authors will get shut out for authors who aren't around. Maybe they were slower before the contest started up though, I wasn't mapping for awhile so I don't know how it was.
     
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