CP Different

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by copyboy, Feb 10, 2011.

  1. copyboy

    copyboy L1: Registered

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    Hey everyone,

    this is my first post on this forum so far (introducing myself can wait) and the map is the second one I've ever worked on. No need to "Well that's pretty good for one of your first maps.", I prefer honest feedback.

    I really enjoy cp_orange because of the way it looks, but the layout and gameplay is just horrible with all the open space and snipers shooting all the way to the other side of the map. This is my attempt to create a new, fun, innovative, ... a different map with a similar style.

    It's a regular 4 control point map which I'm trying to make as interesting as possible for all classes. Because it has 4 control points instead of 5, I believe it can offer a different kind of flow between the points. Haven't seen a lot maps with 4 CPs.

    Even tho each team has only one spawn room, there are three exits, as seen in the second screenshot. The top one which exits to the roof is closed when both teams have two points and obviously open otherwise. The bottom exit (contains a resupply locker) is closed when the team owning only has their final control point left, which makes it easier for the opposing team to go by.

    There may come some more information here about the map, but I think I covered the most important one, the spawn room exits. You can see most features by looking at the screenshots or even trying the map out yourself.

    I haven't had the opportunity to test out the map with real players, so I didn't even get a feeling for it myself. I hope it's as fun as I imagine :)

    I'm considering to put a fairly long tunnel from the second RED to the second BLU control point with some little features and 2 siderooms in too. Similar to ctf_2fort, where you could sometimes find Engineers building up a small base. It'll probably be mostly underwater.
    And the roofs besides the spawn rooms are a little empty as well.

    Well, that's it for now.
    I tried my best to make this map look as professional as possible (besides the style choice), so I'd be happy to hear some constructive feedback from you :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  2. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    This is a push map, right? The reason you don't see 4CP push maps is so that teams don't have to organize an attack and defense immediately; they can focus on the center point. It's generally more fun. That, and having a neutral center point means there is more space to fight over before the final point gets ninja capped. Also, your points seem far too close together. Seems like if you lose your first point, you're done for good.

    I'm not 100% sure if your spawn door mechanics are a good idea, but it could work.

    Without playing it, I'd probably recommend you redesign to have a center, neutral point and some kind of forward spawn system, or else wrap the points around the spawn room in a sort of S shape and also spread them farther apart.

    Beware of long tunnels; they aren't fun.

    Still, it looks like some work went into this. It's a shame you won't detail it like a normal TF2 map -- it's almost a waste of effort considering the number of people who won't play it because of how it looks.
     
  3. Mr. Wimples

    Mr. Wimples L6: Sharp Member

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    Sure looks different... just like any other orange map :O

    I'm just messing with you. I do think, however, you should ditch the orange theme (unless you already planned on it) and go for a medieval theme. The spires on the buildings make it seem so appropriate.
     
  4. copyboy

    copyboy L1: Registered

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    I don't know how the map subtype is called, but you should've guessed it correctly. The thing is, there already are so many maps with 5 CPs, it gets kind of boring with the time. After all, I wanted something "different" :D I have to see how it plays like first before I decide to redesign it.
    About the distance between the control points, that's probably true and I'll see what I can do.
    There should be a reason to choose the overworld over the tunnel. I think it could work in a similar way to 2fort. I'm going to try not to make it too long.
    Yes, as I said, I kind of like the style. Of course I appreciate the work other people put into their maps by detailing them. I just don't think I'm capable of doing that. I can try, but for now I want to make sure it's fun to play.
    (Which is ... probably the usual way to go anyway.)

    I like simplicity. I like cp_orange for the same reason (even tho it is pretty bad as a map).
    And Minecraft ... *cough* You get the idea.

    Thanks for the feedback.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
  5. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Not bad for your first map. lol, you were asking for that.

    I'd say you'd probably have FPS issues, but if you don't plan on adding details then being able to see the entire map at once probably won't be an issue.

    I won't say nobody will play it because it's an 'orange' map. Certianly Orange X has an audience, you'll just need to get it on one of those servers.
     
  6. copyboy

    copyboy L1: Registered

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    It's neither my first map nor was I asking to hear that :p
    About the FPS issue, I wasn't even thinking about that ... yes, the map is basically one big room. The layout won't get changed, so I'll keep that in mind for my next maps.
    And yes, if I can get this map to said audience, I'd be more than happy. That would be exactly what I was aiming for.
     
  7. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Well, hitting them in the face with something half-decent can only be a good thing. Kudos to you.
     
  8. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    If the layout won't be changed, why did you post this? Just for future reference, or something else?

    The best thing to do is to take some of the suggestions and implement them, see what works and make different iterations. If you don't want to do that, you could have just skipped this thread. Right?
     
  9. Mr. Happy

    Mr. Happy L6: Sharp Member

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    In other words a central CP helps teams to turtle and stalemate?
     
  10. copyboy

    copyboy L1: Registered

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    I meant the 4 control points and the very basic layout. Of course I take suggestions and try to implement them in case I agree.
     
  11. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    chokepoints != stalemates.
     
  12. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    A central CP acts kind of like setup time. If every map that used setup time failed to work...
     
  13. nik

    nik L12: Fabulous Member

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    wait..your map is called "different" and your name is "copyboy"

    am I the only one who sees this as weird?
     
  14. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    The building-central layout next to each of the spawns serves to create a lot of sightlines, and the reason I haven't seen too many 4CP maps is that they split teams into two, similar to Gravel Pit.

    Also, quick note: don't come here to make you map seem professional :p come here for feedback to make your map professional, but don't by any means assume it's going to play as you imagine.
     
  15. copyboy

    copyboy L1: Registered

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    I see nothing wrong with splitting teams into two.
    And no, that wasn't was I meant. I just wanted to say I tried my best thinking about what could be fun for all the classes and that I didn't just put stuff where I thought it would look good.
    Nobody and nothing is perfect. I don't want my map to be perfect, but I want to offer something different. For now I'd just like to playtest it.
    *keeps an eye on the Gameday events*
     
  16. RagnarHomsar

    RagnarHomsar L2: Junior Member

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    Think of it this way: you're a Scout. The round begins, you go to cap the enemy's first point... and you get annihilated by the other team. Why? Because everyone else was back at your first point, defending.

    Maps are generally more fun if a team can coordinate an attack or defense without worrying about the enemy ninjaing the point while no-one noticed, or having to stay in one spot, not getting anything done.
     
  17. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Gpit is probably better for splitting the teams because it's A/D.

    Blu gets split attacking, but red also does defending. So both teams have to balance that out and try to counter what the other team does.
    But they always have C to back up to which favors Red on defense somewhat.

    But with attack maps defense is usually pretty thin, and with only the one point to cap before pushing to final it doesn't give the losing team to adjust. Gpit you can see that your points are going to fall and you have to back up. I think on a CP map you'd lose ground too fast and not be able to get defense up without the mid point warning.

    On 5 cp maps, you lose mid you start getting ready to defend last point just in case they roll #2. With 4 points you either set up defense at last right away, or don't have much time after 2nd is capped.

    It might work better if the last point caps as slow as the rest (in 5 CP's it goes really fast)
     
  18. WastedMeerkat

    WastedMeerkat L3: Member

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    "I really enjoy cp_orange because of the way it looks, but the layout and gameplay is just horrible with all the open space and snipers shooting all the way to the other side of the map."

    That kinda talk will get you funny looks 'round here. The part about gameplay kinda makes up for it, though. You should have been here for the dev texture map contest. People made dev texture resupply cabinets.
     
  19. REEJ

    REEJ L7: Fancy Member

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    Nobody can resist the JUICY orange textures - fact
     
  20. Ezekel

    Ezekel L11: Posh Member

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    couple of things (i'll try not to repeat anything that's already been said):

    your map seems to be a large box of sorts - i.e. no divisions of areas. - it's just asking to be demo spammed at range

    by having the 2nd point be the active point for a team, you've basically told the team's engineers: build your sentries whilst under fire, or don't even bother to defend this point. - setup time would only give a partial solution here, as once sentries fall the engies again are in the same situation

    splitting up a team shouldn't be something you should be ok with. - it's in the name of the game for one, and if you look at any valve map, including gravelpit, the map is geared towards funnelling players from both teams to the same place. in gravelpit, this works out despite having a split with A and B because the 2 focal points do not overlap each other and the 2 teams' roles do not overlap, the frontlines and goals are clearly defined.

    in a 4 point 2way cp map however, your frontline becomes a lil murky and spread out, as your giving the teams 2 active CPs in the same battle-space. a player cannot quickly ascertain whether they should be running up to cap the next point, or pulling back to bunker down unless the team is coordinated and communicating. the thing to bear in mind is that in a given pubber game the amount of communication is minimal at best.

    lastly:
    for detailing, it can be a bit daunting, but there are tools to help. do a forum search for the ABS prop library for example - this can make finding the models a lot easier, and lets you get a feel for what models are available to you.
    also, if you look in your mapsrc directly you should find "sdk_*.bsp" maps (where *=anything). these can be useful for seeing what valve maps are made of, and can be a good way to get a feel for the detailing rules/styles of some of the game's themes.