Destroying a Control Center?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by DrHaphazard, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    To recreate Canalzone2 fully I want to make sure I have one of the coolest features of TFC's CZ2. Namely the ability to get into the enemy's flag room and blow it up, thereby resetting all points the enemy held.

    Now in TFC it required having a demoman sneak into the flag room and blow a detpack. Since there are no detpacks in TF2 I am going to require damage on certain computer panels to blow the room.

    Also I am going to make the flagroom door destructible to make it easier to get inside. Both the door and the panel will take a fair amount of damage to blow, I am thinking 8 stickies worth for both. Don't want to make this too easy.

    So here's my problem.

    1) I need a flagroom door that is both a door and destructible.
    2) I need a computer console thats destructible and that will respawn both itself and the flagroom door a few seconds after the room has been blown.
    3) Is there any way to filter the damage so that only one team can blow the door and room. Rather not have griefers blowing up their own base just for shits and giggles.

    Obviously I can use a func_breakable to make both items destructible. But how do i turn that func_Breakable into a door. Also there is no OnBreak command that i can do to the door or the console that will respawn them a few seconds after the console is blown up.

    I imagine that both these things are possible but the system is not readily apparent to me.

    All the other parts of this I have figured out, resetting the points and all that when the console is blown.

    Of course another possibility is to not have the things respawn, make the whole point reset thing a one time deal. I am not overly opposed to that, but if I can get this other way to work I would prefer it for now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  2. Armadillo of Doom

    aa Armadillo of Doom Group Founder, Lover of Pie

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    You don't turn the func_breakable into a door, you pair them. First make your door. Now copy and paste, use the nodraw texture on the copy. Convert it into func_breakable, and make it 1 unit larger on all sides, then put it around your door. Voila! When the func_breakable breaks, you can delete the door, move it into the floor, trigger an explosion, whatever. Same deal with the computer. Put a func_breakable, nodraw, around the prop. When it explodes, you can move the door back into place, play a message that caps were reset, etc. Hope this helps :)
     
  3. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Ohhh....I see. So I wouldnt really get rid of the door or the computer, just hide them in the wall or something? Hmm that sounds like a good solution.

    Might look strange having the door come outta the wall and the computer coming outta the floor, but i plan on making the computer one explode anyways, killing anyone in the room or the hallway outside, so no one outside an uber should be around to see the computer pop back up from the floor.

    EDIT: Oh and here I am clearly asking for the impossible. Is there anyway at all to have the computer/door be damaged by only one team? Ideally of course I'd rather not have say the Red Team blow up its own flagroom, if only to keep griefers from doing it. Ill add that part of the puzzle to my original post too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  4. PandaN

    PandaN L1: Registered

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    A standard filter should do it - just assign it via the trigger you use :)
     
  5. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Heh yeah the obvious filter answer hit me like a ton of bricks a few minutes ago after I connected the dots between this problem and the one for opening doors for only one team.
     
  6. Aperture Scientist

    Aperture Scientist Guest

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    we saw that dynamite in TF2 trailers, it MIGHT come back soon. Because VALVe announced unlockable bonus weapons for each class. I suggest this here regarding ur conception of this map and the point u dealt with concerning the "detpacks".

    http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=180201
     
  7. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    I had an idea kind of similar to this. I was thinking you could have a series of file cabinets which could only be destroyed by fire. You can accomplish this by using a prop_physics_multiplayer (I'd disable motion and physics damage, etc.) and triggering on the OnIgnite output. That way, only a pyro could accomplish this task, which would be a unique incentive to play pyro.

    In your scenario, you'd need a concerted effort from both a pyro (to burn the file cabinets), and at least a demo or soldier (to destroy the computers) to pull it all off. That would be cool because it would make the task harder and therefore more rewarding to accomplish.

    You'd have to control the damage on the file cabinets so they're only burnable, not damaged by explosions etc., possibly by refilling their health constantly. I'd suggest you do the same for the door, so that only 8 stickies at once could destroy it, and not just some soldier grinding away tenaciously.
     
  8. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Yeah I was thinking about that too Apeture when I saw that yesterday. But unless valve plans on adding elements to their map that can be destroyed it seems unlikely that they would include that. Would be interesting if they added that however.

    Hmm very interesting about the OnIgnite thing there Jive. And it is a very cool concept.

    I guess the central question for this sort of thing is how hard/easy should this task be made?

    Certainly I would rather not have this be so easy that it happens every few minutes. But I also don't want it to be so hard that people don't bother trying. The problem with a pyro is that its much harder for him to get into the base. Demos and soldiers can rocket jump into the place but a pyro would have to stand by a door waiting for someone to come out.

    Then of course you're inside the enemy base so every 20 seconds or so youre gonna have a fresh wave of enemies coming right at you.

    I have visions of crafty demo men just wailing on the other team, every time they die they just run back to their base and blow the room again. That's why the one-off deal seems kind of appealing, so its not happening all the time, only once a round.

    I dunno, i keep thinking of all the ways this could go wrong, I think playtesting will be the only way to determine if this ability is imbalanced or not. And if so what can be done to tone it down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  9. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    Not knowing your layout, I didn't realize it was a navigational problem for the pyro to reach this area. I think it would be worth it to have a route the pyro can take. I was actually thinking along the lines of the pyro and demo/soldier moving together toward this area. Like a side mission for the team. Each round a good team would know, after playing this map (you'll definitely want an intro movie for this map), that this little side mission was something worth dedicating a few players. It's also something to turn the tide of a losing battle. Say they're down by 2 and want to close the gap. You could even have it so it doesn't completely reset the attacked team's score, just subtracts it by 1. That might help the balance if you find it happens too often.

    I think the demo should have an easy time getting in there and blowing it up. The limiting factor should be the pyro. Can you get a pyro in there to burn the file cabinets up before the computers respawn again? That would encourage teamwork and communication.

    There's also the question of what to do to these guys after they've destroyed the control center. Do you want to allow them to camp there waiting for the center to respawn, or do you want to kill them/push them out some way? Maybe you throw down security doors and poison gas them. That effectively makes the job a suicide mission, yet something that helps the team immensely.

    Ideally, you'd be able to award points to the individual players so that even if the sequence isn't completed, they get rewarded for their part and have an incentive to give it a try. Unfortunately, I've heard the game_score entity doesn't function properly for individuals, only teams. Another frustratingly broken entity.
     
  10. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    As far as difficulty in the actual destruction... I'd say 8 stickies is way too easy. Laying a detpack took 5 seconds of being frozen and immobile, open to attack from anyone coming through the door unless you stop and start over after killing him. 8 stickies may take just as long to fire, but you are not immobile, can use the GL to kill people, or even just detonate the stickies before you have them all down to kill the person(people!) at the same time you get a head start on damaging stuff.
     
  11. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Ah my mistake Jive, I had originally made a really long post describing how this all worked in the CZ2 for TFC, but then scrapped it as being too long for most people to wanna read.

    To make things more clear heres how this all works:

    - Ya got your spawn room (2 doors out to hopefully avoid complete spawn camping.)
    - You exit the spawn room into the base proper (not large, just 1 room basically.)
    - The base has 3 doors, 2 to the outside where the cps are and one at the end of a hallway for the flagroom/control center. (oh and the 2 spawnroom doors of course)
    - All 3 of those doors are team specific.
    - Theres also a 4th exit that has no door, just a ladder taking you up to a battlements type area.
    - The battlements are not enclosed, its just like a deck.

    So from an attackers standpoint you have to do this:

    1. Make it to the enemy base without dying (not very difficult)
    2.a. Either wait for the door to open when someone comes out (could have a fight on your hands) or...
    2.b. Rocket/sticky jump up onto the battlements (thereby losing some hp)
    3. Run through the base (not large) to the hallway where the flag/control room is located
    4. Blow up the security door (takes 8 stickies worth so will take a few seconds to accomplish)
    5. Enter the flag room and do 8 stickies-worth of damage to the actual control panel (again a few seconds).
    6. I plan to add an explosion to this last part that will kill anyone in the room or the hallway.

    So as you can see it would take a bit of skill/luck to accomplish this. The entire time youre in the base of course you could have a new respawn wave coming at any second.

    If this was a straight port of the TFC version it would be even more difficult because first off only a demoman could blow the thing with his detpack and secondly the security door to the flagroom could not be destroyed. You had to simply hope that there was an enemy inside getting a flag to open the door for you (and not kill you on his way out.)

    So i guess yall be the judge here on two counts:

    1) Is this system too complex?
    2) Is this system too easy or too hard?

    Oh and I realize that providing pictures would be simpler but my map looks so crappy in its layout form that id be embarrased to do so.
     
  12. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    To answer boojum:

    Hmm yes I said 8 stickies because that was first off the most damage I knew how to create in one go and secondly because as you said it takes about the same amount of time as the detpack (if not slightly more.)

    Plus I would note that you have to do this two times, since you gotta blow both the door and the computers, instead of only once with the detpack.

    Again I think this just needs to be playtested to fine tune for balance, but my other concern is how am I going to prompt people to do this. I was hoping to create some motivational posters on the subject, plus put big warning sides inside the flag room and on the security door saying "Avoid Damage!" as like a hint but I have to admit this is rather complex.

    Imagine how many posters would be needed for just the 5 steps I labeled above!

    On another tangent, and as a final touch, I would love to create a slideshow in the spawn room (or a room adjacent) that explains some of the nuances of the level. A slideshow similar to the ones that can be found in portal towards the end.

    Gah so much work! So many things left to figure out =/ I still have to fine tune the damn flags so that you can't have more than one and so that they dont slow you down as much.
     
  13. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    Just do the intro movie, there's a post in the tutorials section of this forum on how to do one. And if people don't understand how to do it at first, the primary part of the level is still playable so no big deal. In fact, you end up rewarding those people who are paying attention as they'll be the first ones exploiting it and making other players stratch their heads. The best part about new maps is learning all the little tricks.

    If you have the player have to wait for the door to open, then that's actually kind of perfect for the pyro as he normally sits waiting around a corner for an enemy to ambush. He blasts the team with fire and runs in through the confusion. Maybe instead of needing both the pyro and the demo man to destroy the control center, you can have either of them do their own task. One in a computer room, the other in a file room, destruction of either of which would then decrement the capture count by 1. That way, both pyros and demomen have unique objectives on this map if they decide so. Engis also have another area to install sentries to prevent destruction of these rooms.

    A couple more ideas. You could either alert the other team whenever the security door is blown via a message. That would put more potential pressure on the demoman, making the task harder. Or you could have it where it takes multiple 8-sticky explosions to open the door. Just use a func_breakable with its minhealthdmg set to whatever 8 stickies worth of damage is. Then it will only fire its OnDamage output whenever 8 stickies are used on it. When you fire this OnDamage output, restore the func_breakable's health (you never want it to die), then bump a logic_counter. Then you can destroy the real door whenever your logic_counter reaches the amount of 8-sticky explosions you want. This ensures that A) the demoman's job is difficult, and B) that only he can do it. It will essentially be like having the det pack because only he can affect the trigger.
     
  14. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Wow very clever solution for having only the demoman open the door jive...I like it a lot.

    I like your idea of having a seperate room, but that might just create more confusion. Also I kind of like the idea of anyone being able to do this in theory not just 1 or 2 classes. Tahts why i was gonna leave it as generic damage. Plus, depending on how hard this task is in reality, it might be better not to have the damage reset so that the 2nd or 3rd attempts are made easier because of the previous damage done.

    I guess i should also explain, just for reference, how the scoring works.

    - 5 cap points, all Unlocked
    - Ya gotta take a flag from the flagroom (there should be 3 per team) to a point to cap
    - Every 30 seconds after capture your team is awarded one point, timer stops if cap point is lost.
    - First team to reach 50 points wins or,
    - Alternatively first team to cap all 5 points wins, this means that a team losing 45 to 10 can still win the game on a big push.

    The 30 seconds and 50 points thing is variable of course, gotta work out how long i want the game to last and so on. So theres no real subtraction of points, but if your flag room is blown you stop scoring entirely, until your flag runners cap new points.

    I have already worked out the entire capturing and scoring system, and could post a tutorial on how to do it. Its fairly straightforward, just a lot of outputs flying every which way to make it work.
     
  15. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Oh and one more thought... (jeez I am failing at getting real work done today)

    Even with a full tank no Pyro can do 700 points worth of damage (what Ive averaged 8 stickies to do) so perhaps I can have a second damage trigger for the door that uses that OnIgnite output that Jive was talking about earlier. That way a pyro can burn his way into the room.

    Dunno if that OnIgnite thing is really damage though or a one-off deal when the fire hits the trigger. Clearly dont want one puff of fire opening the door for the pyro!

    Oh yeah and I already have a warning displayed when the security door is blown, plus another message when the computer is destroyed saying the points are reset for that team.

    One more cool thing about the flag/control room is that it had in TFC a board on the wall that showed a map layout with each control area colored to whoever owned it. I really would love to recreate this because, while they still have the HUD to say who hold what, it would be nice for the new players to have a visual map that showed them exactly where things are and who holds it.

    GAH! And one final thing. I would like to avoid doing a movie if I could since I have never done anything like that before. Plus don't movies add tremendously to the size of the map? I'd like to avoid that since lots of people wont even bother to download something that is 15mbs or bigger.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  16. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    That sounds cool man. I like the hybrid system. I think i'm going to implement my burning file cabinet idea in a new map then. I just found out today that my mine-cart pushing idea was not only already thought up by other people, but it is also being implemented officially by Valve itself! And I just got the damn func_tracktrain to finally behave itself last night. Oh well, that map goes on the backburner.