Desirable map types

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Chilly, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Let me preface this by saying that I understand mappers will make the types of maps that interest them the most. A mapper that plays CTF will make a CTF map just like a mapper that plays payload will play payload.

    However, I'm sure there are some mappers out there that are trying to figure out what type of map they should do next. Let me be of assistance. ;) I'm basing this completely on the availability of good custom maps in each map category as well as popular sentiment that I've picked up on from the community map vote stuff.

    Additionally I'm leaving out odd gameplay types since those tend to either be confusing or not that popular. This includes maps that mix CTF and CP, CP and payload, etc. I'm not saying they're not fun and not well done, but they tend to be less player friendly than the maps that stick to simple game rules.

    So, in order of highest demand to lowest, with an example and explanation for each.
    1. Branching CP (Gravel Pit)
    The only top-notch map of this type that I'm aware of is cp_junction. People love this game type, it's a smaller map type, and it shouldn't be too hard to balance (just focus balancing A/B and RED/BLU in each area), so I'm surprised more of these haven't been made.

    2. 3 stage A/D (Dustbowl)
    I wish cp_corporation got more attention on the 2nd and 3rd stages since it had a lot of potential. Otherwise we have cp_boulder which people absolutely love (I think it needs more work on stage 3). Without boulder this would be #1 on the list, since I don't think it has hit its popularity peak yet. I think cp_broma fits into this category as well, although I've not played it.

    3. TC
    This would be higher on the list if TC were more popular. Right now we have meridian and then the "others", which aren't quite finished IIRC. I'd love to see someone try tackling a TC map and figuring out a way to prevent turtling in each area, while still allowing some defense. :)

    4. Single stage payload
    I think the payload contest is handling this demand sufficiently. :)

    5. 3 stage payload
    pl_hoodoo and pl_cave are the only finished ones. I think pl_haywood shows promise as do a couple others, but overall there aren't that many of them. However, gold rush, hoodoo, and cave seem to be handling the demand for this type, plus the fact that badwater's style seems to be more popular with players and mappers.

    6. Linear 3CP
    cp_oilfield shows just how successful this game type can be. These maps are fun for smaller games. They're too similar to 5CP maps to get too much damage, though.

    7. CTF
    There are a TON of good and bad CTF maps out there. I think we could use another official CTF map (aerospace *cough*), but otherwise there's very little demand for these.

    8. Linear 5CP
    The fact that there are 4 official 5CP maps plus a ton of excellent customs in this style (redstone, switchback, labor, freight) means there's very little need for more of them. The fact that freight and switchback have received so little attention despite being great maps is proof that this category is saturated. In fact, if someone is planning a 5CP map I'd suggest changing it to a 3CP map or accept the fact that your map will rarely get played. Unfortunate but true. :(

    Please note that this list isn't complete and relies on my opinion. I'm not insulting any maps that I didn't refer to in a particular category, but moreso trying to make generalizations.

    Hope this helps sway a mapper toward a game type at the top of the list. ;)

    EDIT: I forgot arena, which would fall under 6 since there's a decent amount of really good custom arena maps already. :)
     
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  2. Uriak

    Uriak L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    cp_broma is a gravelpit_like map.

    And playing TC_spectre further convinced me this gametype is flawed. I think the demand is very very low. Highest would be as you said for 3 stage/2 stage A/D

    As a side note, while_gold rush and dustbowl are still very liked on our servers, all official 5CP linear aren't. At the same time, most linear map gets old quite quicly, due to very long rounds, with almost always unsufficient back and forth action. We discarded japan, switchback, redstone... (warpath is an exception because of its franctic grindage nature (from time to time, players needs such a nobrain action). Only science is still appreciated on our server, with its cunning non linear layout.
     
  3. FaTony

    FaTony Banned

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    I <3 TC. And I'll be perfecting tc_street which is bad now.
     
  4. Apom

    Apom L6: Sharp Member

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    Yeah, I was about to say that, and it's definitely a good one. Actually, while I share Chilly's initial analysis that branching CP is the less mapped-for gameplay style, I must point out that it currently has the best overall map quality.


    Uriak once again beats me on the line, as I was about to mention Spectre as a finished TC. A bit empty, but finished nonetheless. And indeed, just like Hydro, it has a tendancy to never end.


    I barely played cp_boulder at all so I won't say anything about it, but cp_corporation clearly needs balancing work which looks like it's never going to happen. However, Chilly, you're forgetting about cp_castle4 (the style isn't great but it is quite playable) and cp_aqua (only 2 stages, and the last point is a bit too much of a sentry fest, but its ambiance is excellent).
     
  5. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    has anyone done a large scale poll on what map types players (not mappers) actually want more of?
    If not it could be a good idea to conduct one.
     
  6. Spike

    Spike L10: Glamorous Member

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    CP ftw

    I love dustbowl-like maps
     
  7. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    Makes me feel like a hero for having one in the works. It's sad that there are so very few of these, they're pretty much the best map type out there, I think. Valve better make one for their next update. >:O
     
  8. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    You're so right, If L4D fails me and I end up completely uninterested in mapping for it I might resurrect tc_strata and chop a bit out and make it a 3 point triangle.

    Its just so sad maps take so long to make, I started hoodoo a week before goldrush was released and its only just really worthy of release.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
  9. laghlagh

    laghlagh L6: Sharp Member

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    I love cp_boulder (not the third stage so much), and is working on an A/D map.
     
  10. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Excellent comments. Obviously I forgot a few maps like Broma and Castle. While I love castle I would argue that it's not "top-notch" due to the openness of it. Vilepickle resolved much of this in his most recent release, but it could still be so much better. I also didn't know spectre was finished... I'll have to load it on the server and try it out.

    In any case, it's good to hear some people have a few maps in the works for the high demand types as well. And youme, I'd try getting a poll going to see which types of maps people like, but my energy and free time is currently in another direction. ;)
     
  11. Cat™

    Cat™ L1: Registered

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    I don't think taking stock of what players want MORE of is the best idea. Balance is always best, especially in such refined play styles. It's no use everyone making payload maps and over-running the game with payload maps when there are other great playstyles out there. A balance of CP/CTF/PL/TC will always be better overall than having a shitload of payload maps even if payload is your preferred playstyle.
     
  12. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Correct, but the point of my original post is that there's currently not a balance between the different types. Also, catering to demand is the best way a mapper can get his/her map played. In other words, there are a ton of 5CP and CTF maps out there, so if a mapper makes another his map will probably not get played much.
     
  13. laghlagh

    laghlagh L6: Sharp Member

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    I see no meaning in creating a shitload of for example tc maps if people don't want to play them, not even to create your feng shui balance :)
     
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    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
  14. Forthex

    Forthex L2: Junior Member

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    Amen. Sorry, but I feel that TC maps promote stalemates and never ending games.
     
  15. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Only the diagonal ones, I've explain hydro's faults many times, its really quite simple:
    The diagonal maps have only one route between bases, thus stalemate. all the other arrangements have more than one route and rarely stalemate.
    but since the diagonals run until time limit most of the time playing appears to be on those ones, so everyone thinks hydro stalemates all the time when infact it doesn't.
    It is however far from perfect.
     
  16. Kill_the_Bug

    Kill_the_Bug L14: Epic Member

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    I hate Castle and despise Happy Cow - sorry fo the mappers who made it.

    Castle to open and cap points really hard to defend if the attacking team has their act together.

    Happy Cow - two chokes only - get a ton of sg's set up and attackers can't get in - even if ubered
     
  17. Apom

    Apom L6: Sharp Member

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    It's better to have this kind of map too easy for BLU than too hard. If it's too easy to defend, you're in for a painful drawn-out battle (who said Corporation?). On the other hand, if it's impossible to defend, it surely isn't good for 24/24 play, but at least you can have your fun by occasionnally playing it.
     
  18. Altaco

    Altaco L7: Fancy Member

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    I played junction once, it sucked. It seems the author's way of "detailing" is throwing a bunch of random props everywhere with no purpose.
     
  19. Zipok

    Zipok L2: Junior Member

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    I would like to point out that there indeed is demand for good 5-cp maps in the competitive scene. Public players usually don't ask for those maps, but the competitive scene of TF2 really wants more good 5-cp maps like cp_freight, which has been well accepted into the communities that play 6v6 by the way. :)

    If you want some more attention to your linear 5-cp or 3-cp maps, please try advertising it to the leagues that currently exist in TF2. I believe the people there will gladly try out if it suits their way of playing. And if it works for them.. it usually works on publics to a certain degree. Badlands & Granary for example are perhaps the most popular maps in the leagues, and they are played in publics too.