CurtainCall

KotH CurtainCall A3

TwinMill

L2: Junior Member
Nov 2, 2017
52
28
CurtainCall - Act happy, or get killed

"Welcome ladies and gentlemen to the greatest show in the badlands! We have the finest entertainment for you tonight; so fine in fact, that many of these actors will be dead by the end of it!

Recently had the itch to get back into mapping, so it's time to stretch those muscles again. It really has been a while.

KotH_CurtainCall is a theater-themed map. One side of the map is wide open so the audience can see the wonderful dramatic and comedic thespian stylings of the Teufort players, who may or may not actually be trying to kill each other.

So let's play this play! I like the soldier rollouts and bombs on mid, scouts rule mid (as usual) and the snipers are kept in-check (hopefully)
 

Zeus

Not a Krusty Krab
aa
Oct 15, 2014
1,344
553
you def need to have the spawn doors be curtains otherwise this map is unplayable
 

TwinMill

L2: Junior Member
Nov 2, 2017
52
28
"Taa-Daaa!"

Okay, so almost the number one thing I hear about this map is "It's too open"
So let's fill it in a bit. This update is a slight one, I don't know how much it's going to change. Pyros went ham-bone on the death-cliff, so I wanted that area to be safer to retreat to. I was hoping the map had a flow where players at the top of the hill would push players on the point to the cliff, who (if they escaped) could circle back to the top. That's obviously not happening here, but I'm still working on how to fix a few of the major issues. Bear with me, still an amateur at this.

- Added railings and high ground near the death pit
- Upgraded small health to medium near point
- Fixed broken doors and resupply locker
- Clipping fixed
- Narrowed mid in
- Added more cover on mid's high-ground
- Upgraded another small health (on the battlements) to medium (same with ammo)

That's all the major stuff. Slight changes, don't even know if an imp for it is necessary, but we'll see.

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

_Blamo

L1: Registered
Feb 18, 2017
25
97
Haven't really looked at a TF2 map in depth in a while, so I figured I'll do so again in this thread since your streams give more of an insight into what you're looking to achieve map design wise

Though I really only played this twice, so take everything with a grain of salt. Though with certainty, I really enjoy how many of the openings face the point angled; makes for a more unique koth experience (borderline circular?)

Gonna go on a sort of rant regarding two of the classes. With Scout, I already know that he's indeed, very strong. What I'm concerned about is that he's granted an even greater amount of freedom than what his DM potential already allows. With how I personally play Scout, I use the Atomizer in pretty much all my matches in order to attack enemies from positions they least expect. That, or just to close any horizonal distance needed. It seems that a lot of brushes were made to deny an easy escape through double jumping, that is unless movement enhancing unlocks are used.

I know most maps already become more malleable this way, but even then I feel that any extra movement potential is still reeled in to a degree. I already discovered a handful of atomizer jumps (see video below) and admittedly they're fun to integrate in the combat loop, reminding me of why I love this class seeing how many ways you can approach attacking. However it seems that you'd like to at least mitigate Scout's influence in the KOTH gamemode, and it's not like the Atomizer is an uncommon unlock. I don't want to have all of these jumps gutted (I want to keep terrorizing Snipers) nor do I have any specific suggestions in mind, and I at least consider myself above average when it comes to Scout so I very well may be trying too hard playing devil's advocate (proud Scout main here). I do see this being more problematic with defending Scouts at the very least. I'm at least curious to see your thoughts on where you wanna go from here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp_a2QWGr2g


Now, [Stock] Sniper is a bit weird. While I have yet to play him here (to be honest I'm burnt out on the class myself) I feel that I have enough playtime and knowledge to infer how he does play out. I also noticed that both of the teams' Snipers mainly kept to themselves at their respective battlements which seems intended. While not brought up often, one of the reasons why Sniper is so powerful (admittedly, to a fault sometimes) is his element of surprise. Switching up positions is a great way of diverging the attention of the enemy team (and by extension: the enemy Sniper) as they're on the lookout for anyone in your previous position; this is the Sniper's time to strike. However, the Sniper can't afford that once they've set themselves up at the "Sniper Wall", or at least dropping down and trekking a considerable distance just isn't worth it. I guess they could try to attack from one of the large crates near the cliff, but I can image that not going over well in many cases with how close the point is. I want Snipers to be kept in their place and KOTH does a much better job at that than many other modes, but I wouldn't want to be limited in terms of where I can go, and as a part time Sniper main that isn't terribly fun. Part of the reason why we Snipers enjoy the class is that he feels fast paced in his own way. Sniper can dish out high damage in less than a second, and they're encouraged to constantly move positions. Instead of limiting what an already very direct class can do, force me to be more aware of my surroundings in order to avoid getting flanked or bombed.

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.29.07.92.png


On the other hand, the lack of flanks behind the point (right now you pretty much have to risk being called out as you cross) make him less approachable than he should be. I'm guessing bombing Soldiers might find the time to pick the Sniper but not so much for many others. If I was going stock scout for example, I would need to cross the point and either jump from the class cutouts unto the platform (by then I'm pretty much overextending), or go up the stairs and through the enemy battlements praying that there isn't a sentry set up. If I were to do the former, the jump itself would give the Sniper enough time to react with either a quickscope or a simple noscope, if they're observant anyway. At least that how I would see that scenario turning out. Overall I simultaneously feel that Sniper is both held back a bit too much, and not enough.

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.53.28.66.png

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.53.33.88.png


One last thing: these stairs near spawn need to be clipped on both sides of the map
Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 18.02.32.39.png
 

TwinMill

L2: Junior Member
Nov 2, 2017
52
28
Haven't really looked at a TF2 map in depth in a while, so I figured I'll do so again in this thread since your streams give more of an insight into what you're looking to achieve map design wise

Though I really only played this twice, so take everything with a grain of salt. Though with certainty, I really enjoy how many of the openings face the point angled; makes for a more unique koth experience (borderline circular?)

Gonna go on a sort of rant regarding two of the classes. With Scout, I already know that he's indeed, very strong. What I'm concerned about is that he's granted an even greater amount of freedom than what his DM potential already allows. With how I personally play Scout, I use the Atomizer in pretty much all my matches in order to attack enemies from positions they least expect. That, or just to close any horizonal distance needed. It seems that a lot of brushes were made to deny an easy escape through double jumping, that is unless movement enhancing unlocks are used.

I know most maps already become more malleable this way, but even then I feel that any extra movement potential is still reeled in to a degree. I already discovered a handful of atomizer jumps (see video below) and admittedly they're fun to integrate in the combat loop, reminding me of why I love this class seeing how many ways you can approach attacking. However it seems that you'd like to at least mitigate Scout's influence in the KOTH gamemode, and it's not like the Atomizer is an uncommon unlock. I don't want to have all of these jumps gutted (I want to keep terrorizing Snipers) nor do I have any specific suggestions in mind, and I at least consider myself above average when it comes to Scout so I very well may be trying too hard playing devil's advocate (proud Scout main here). I do see this being more problematic with defending Scouts at the very least. I'm at least curious to see your thoughts on where you wanna go from here.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp_a2QWGr2g


Now, [Stock] Sniper is a bit weird. While I have yet to play him here (to be honest I'm burnt out on the class myself) I feel that I have enough playtime and knowledge to infer how he does play out. I also noticed that both of the teams' Snipers mainly kept to themselves at their respective battlements which seems intended. While not brought up often, one of the reasons why Sniper is so powerful (admittedly, to a fault sometimes) is his element of surprise. Switching up positions is a great way of diverging the attention of the enemy team (and by extension: the enemy Sniper) as they're on the lookout for anyone in your previous position; this is the Sniper's time to strike. However, the Sniper can't afford that once they've set themselves up at the "Sniper Wall", or at least dropping down and trekking a considerable distance just isn't worth it. I guess they could try to attack from one of the large crates near the cliff, but I can image that not going over well in many cases with how close the point is. I want Snipers to be kept in their place and KOTH does a much better job at that than many other modes, but I wouldn't want to be limited in terms of where I can go, and as a part time Sniper main that isn't terribly fun. Part of the reason why we Snipers enjoy the class is that he feels fast paced in his own way. Sniper can dish out high damage in less than a second, and they're encouraged to constantly move positions. Instead of limiting what an already very direct class can do, force me to be more aware of my surroundings in order to avoid getting flanked or bombed.

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.29.07.92.png


On the other hand, the lack of flanks behind the point (right now you pretty much have to risk being called out as you cross) make him less approachable than he should be. I'm guessing bombing Soldiers might find the time to pick the Sniper but not so much for many others. If I was going stock scout for example, I would need to cross the point and either jump from the class cutouts unto the platform (by then I'm pretty much overextending), or go up the stairs and through the enemy battlements praying that there isn't a sentry set up. If I were to do the former, the jump itself would give the Sniper enough time to react with either a quickscope or a simple noscope, if they're observant anyway. At least that how I would see that scenario turning out. Overall I simultaneously feel that Sniper is both held back a bit too much, and not enough.

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.53.28.66.png

Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 19.53.33.88.png


One last thing: these stairs near spawn need to be clipped on both sides of the map
Team Fortress 2 Screenshot 2021.05.18 - 18.02.32.39.png


Thanks for all your feedback, Blamo! It really helps!
Truth be told I really was *NOT* happy with how the map was. There were a lot of elements I wanted to try and I felt like in order to test them out it would require an entire map re-design, so that's kind of what I did. I incorporated a lot of your input though! Snipers and scouts got shifted quite a bit in this next update I feel, so I guess we'll just have to see how it tests!
 

TwinMill

L2: Junior Member
Nov 2, 2017
52
28
*BOOM*

"Did you hear that? What was that noise?"

"Sounds like half a map getting deleted."

That noise is the sound of half a map getting deleted. I was not satisfied with this map at all. There were a lot of things I wanted to change but changing them would require a huge re-design.
Well luckily that's why we are in this stage of alphas, it sure make razing the fortress less painful. The new CurtainCall (A3 now!) is born, and the changes are numerous - too much to list them off one by one, so I'll give you some larger notes.

> Mid has been condensed with more routes and cover
I really didn't like mid. When I designed it I thought it was cool, but as we kept testing it was CLEAR it did nothing for flow. It was open, hard to enter into a fight in, and had very little cover. The NEW mid has a main entrance in close quarters, a lower route flank(ish), and cover near the outside. The goal was to make the mid-fight much more intimate, something that didn't feel like you REQUIRED an uber or a push to get through, or at least into. I think it's much easier to engage in a mid-fight now.

> The battlements defend the highground
The previous iteration had a sort of drop-down next to the battlements. This drop-down was supposed to be a flank but it was just distracting it seemed. It is POOFED out of existence. Instead, the high-ground on the point is something to be contested. Controlling that means you control the point, but I think it's very easy to clear people off of it. Hopefully this pushes players off the high ground and onto the point. The battlements are basically there for snipers and for other players to defend their side of the high-ground.

> Easily defend-able territory
The last tests one team was ALWAYS pushing farther in. It usually ended up being that one team had to straight up push out of spawn, THEN push onto the point.... no thanks. So now, with more height variation and with the defending team controlling the resources, hopefully that won't happen. I want to keep as much fighting in the courtyard/mid area as possible.


There are a whole bunch of other changes, but those are the significant ones. I do feel the map is a bit cramped, but I feel I need to test before I tackle that kind of subject. at least then I have a better idea of what I'm looking at.I think it might be best if we just test and you see for yourself! Let me know what you think, love you guys <3

Read the rest of this update entry...