cp_silvertrail

Discussion in 'WIP (Work in Progress)' started by Ravidge, Dec 26, 2008.

  1. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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  2. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    (This is the old first post.)

    ALPHA 1

    cp_silvertrail
    A gravelpit-style capture point map.

    development process: make a basic layout in MSpaint -> dev blocking in Hammer -> make quick changes -> more work in Hammer, installing entities -> figure out theme -> naming -> post thread

    Normally I come up with a theme/name first and then start making sketches, not this time however. I'm also new to this whole "blocking out" business.

    At first I was going to use the desert theme and maybe make it a more industrialized area, with huge pipes and machinery scattered around the map. But somewhere along the building process I got sidetracked and started looking at the alpine tools at hand... Needless to say they were few and not as developed as the desert theme. But if combined they could make a nice set for my map (with some custom content). I chose an alpine + mining setting thinking it could work pretty well. Then while trying to come up with a clever name for this creation I browsed wikipedia and stumbled upon the Klondike Gold rush in Alaska/Yukon, looking at photos of these places (Yukon river esp.) inspired me a lot and so I found "The Silver trail", a road going through several cities where silver mining once flourished.

    Some pictures of Yukon and the river if you're interested:
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a0/067FiveFingerRapids.jpg
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a0/068FiveFingerRapids2.jpg
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a0/kenocity_museum.jpg
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a0/mining.jpg
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a0/yukon_mountain.jpg

    Pictures of alpha 1:
    Overview
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10003.jpg

    point a:
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10002.jpg
    I wanted this area (a) to be a little smaller than the others for some more close range action, there's quite a lot of ammo for engineers to use but with the short distances it might be hard to setup a defence before it gets smashed.
    Capture point is located on the second floor of a building. Full ammopack is available at the first floor.

    point b
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10000.jpg
    This area (b) is larger and contains less/smaller pickups. the size should be enough for a sniper to be effective but not overpowered. Capture point is placed inside a demolished house, cover is minimal but enough to hide behind. Since the house is in such poor state it's much easier to "enter" than cap A.

    point c
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10001.jpg
    The area around point C is very open and attacks can come from several paths, meaning that a defensive sentrygun might be very vulnerable to attacks from another angle so the defensive team will have to be smart about their sentrygun placements so that they can cover each other if needed. The distance to the point is actually quite short for the blue team but with the lack of cover i hope it will be a challenging push to victory.

    tunnel area
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10004.jpg
    This is an area right in the middle of the map and the tunnel is a great shortcut between A and B. This area can be accessed from C but then it's a one way trip through a hole in the floor. The tunnel contains a full medkit and medium ammopack, controlling this area increases the movability for your team as well as survival. This room is great for teleporters (both teams) and for red it's a chance to get behind the blue team and attack from several angles making blues job much harder while fighting over C. Of course blue can stop red from doing this with some offensive engineering (and also setting up a teleporter)


    Other comments:
    I have not displaced the ground yet because I'm very unsure if the map size is right.
    Point B got some quick displacing and a few props to help me imagine the setting the map was taking (it's a very quick job, no detail work is final).
    Lighting is not representative of how it will look later.
    There is currently no optimizing at all except a few brushes turned into func_detail.
    I will probably raise the skybox a little so that soldiers and demomen can jump more freely.


    Questions I want help with at the moment:
    The size. Is A/B/C too small/large/just right ?
    Capture times? Right now A and B are a few seconds faster than gravelpit and C is a little longer. I want it to be enough for red to have a chance to defend an assaulted point.
    More or less ammo and health? If yes, where?
    More signs?
    Too long Setup time?

    If you can see a flaw in the layout already be sure to let me know, I did this map in devtexture blocks to make such things easy to fix and remodel so don't hesitate to post if you think something should be changed. I'll look into the problem and find a solution that works (might take more than one try though).

    Any feedback is good feedback.

    Custom silver texture (under development):
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10005.jpg

    Download link:
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=869

    Contains:
    Solid walls
    Recycled air
    two-way stairs
    A mostly pest-free environment

    cp_silvertrail, the map of tomorrow, Today! (and the map of today, yesterday)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2009
  3. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    Looks interesting, but C looks way too hard for RED. There's a reason Valve put Gravelpit C way up on top of a tower and hard to access, but easier to access for RED than BLU. With a short cap time, RED needs some chance of being able to defend it easily, and the height advantage and lack of accessibility for BLU aids this. However, if BLU wipes out RED, they'll probably be able to cap with without trouble.

    With your cap C I see it being like Dustbowl 2-2. BLU can put 12 people on the cap point at different times and still lose, because RED's spawn is very close, or if BLU gets in between respawn waves, they'll get their entire team on the point.

    Playtesting will be the true test, I'm interested in seeing what happens.
     
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  4. Ezekel

    Ezekel L11: Posh Member

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    based on what nine axis said, you could make it slightly longer distance for red to get from spawn to C - e.g. using a fence or height + ramp. - so you can still shoot at the point from the same angles.
    they'll still be able to see the point but it means they have to walk further (and U turn) to actually get there.
    just a suggestion is all. though it might not work out well if it makes blu's approach to C become too much of a bottleneck
     
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  5. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    While building there were plans to make C on a tower but I decided to make it a regular building cap. The reason for this was that I didn't want to create "gravel pit 2" and to some extent It would be quite similar to cap A.
    Somehow I feel that I don't want to lenghten the distance red has to walk, it's a pretty long trip to get to A or B atm and I don't want it longer (maybe shortcut doors that close when C opens?).
    But if this design doesn't work I will have to rework it, which is exactly what playtesting is for.

    Capture point C is the only thing that looks nothing like my initial sketches and was remade without a real plan in mind in the "building in hammer" process, any suggestions for improvement are welcome.
     
  6. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    I would say fill in each side of the C building with a wall, what makes gravelpit C work is that it is easy to hold by whoever is on it while a lone BLU player can be quickly overpowered due to the small space.

    I don't think it has to be a tower to work, it's just that it needs to offer more cover to people on the point.
     
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  7. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I see what you mean, thanks! I'll see if I can come up with some design ideas to implement in next/later releases.

    Right now I'm learning 3d modeling (again, it's been a few years) to create some props :) nothing exciting but I hope it will be worth the time. I'll post progress on that too when there is some.
     
  8. Cerious

    Cerious L7: Fancy Member

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    Oh god, please put much more cover. This map looks like sniper heaven.
     
  9. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    If we take a look at gravel pit we will see that all those areas are very open with long sightlines but I still wouldn't consider them sniper heaven, just sniper friendly.
    I want to achieve something similar in this map and as you can see there are almost no cover to be found in this first release. I'm planning to only put up cover where it's actually needed so that it doesn't clutter up the map, but to do so I must first get feedback from players to tell me where it's needed the most.

    So don't worry, sufficient sniper cover will be added in time.

    Any particular area you were thinking of?
     
  10. Ezekel

    Ezekel L11: Posh Member

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    i wasn't suggesting increasing the distance from A and B from the spawns, but making perhaps a funnel set up using chain-wire link fence for the C point. making red have to walk part way towards the far side of the area before they can physically stand on the point. but have some thing to allow for being able to still shoot at players on point C without being in the funnel - to stop cases of being unable to do anything about a lone player on the cap point before it's too late
     
  11. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    Just throwing this one out there, don't have to make it a tower, but maybe just add one more level to it and some alternate ways to get there.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

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    Preliminary playtesting: Too much distance to cover for BLU around CP C, Red can always intercept them due to that large open space there. Overall, fun. Gravelpit style is the hardest to provide advice for, sorry :c
     
  13. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Thanks blade!
    Your idea could very well work with a few tweaks (the stairs to the right would be very hard to reach as blue so it would probably need moving a bit.

    I did some sketching myself to match the other helpful posts on the previous page and came up with a point that should be easier to defend but also easy to cap if unguarded. In theory.

    I'll wait till after gameday (jan 03) to see if the tweaks are needed or not. And even if they aren't I will probably remake a lot of cap C since I seriously feel that something is missing :)

    I've gotten a fair amount of comments on C now, is there anything to say about the rest of the map? I'm still wondering about the size. When I got that down I will start displacing the ground and it will (hopefully) make the map a lot more pleasant to look at.

    In other news, I'm trying to get a server up and running with this and probably a few other custom maps. Would be great, but it's still just a maybe.

    ==!Edit!==
    Yeah, I thought so, as I said above; C will definitely be rebuilt in a2.
    Thanks for checking it out mangy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2008
  14. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Doing some small fixes. Everyone likes screenshots:
    (Sorry for the terrible quality)

    Another C point, might be better, might be worse.. time will tell.
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a2/cp_silvertrail_a20000.jpg

    An alternative attack route to flank C
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a2/cp_silvertrail_a20001.jpg

    Added tracks to enhance the mining theme and feel I want to create (when detailing phase comes). The carts also provides some cover.
    http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a2/cp_silvertrail_a20002.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009
  15. Xi.Cynx

    aa Xi.Cynx Former Alias: †Blade†

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    Hmm, not bad, I like what I see so far. Can't wait to see whats coming up in some future modifications or additions. ;)
     
  16. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Only a few people were present on gameday (late timeslot = no players) but to those who were there, thanks!

    Seems The size of the map is okay, Maybe shorten the overall distance to C for blue players but Im not sure about that. The new level 3 teleporters are pretty damn efficient.

    Capture point C is (as expected) quite shitty in the alpha 1 release. Hoping to tweak that area in the upcoming releases (see pictures above). Capping time might be a little too long atm, might reduce it by a few seconds.

    Someone mentioned the silver texture in red spawn had missing cubemaps but actually it's the red devtexture in the roof beeing reflected so there's no problem there.

    With so few people there it's hard to tell if A/B needs any major layout changes, things are really different when there's a full team with sentrygun support guarding the points instead of four guys with slingshots.

    I will start displacing the ground and add some more props now that I got the size confirmed. At least for the major part of the map. Expect screenshots soon.

    If you got any feedback ill be glad to hear it.
     
  17. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    Hey, great map. I'm sure the final product is going to be a killer. If you get all the kinks worked out in gameplay, this will be a sweet map.

    Here's a screenshot I said I'd post about your door's areaportal. Maybe change the state to open? It still reduces visibility, doesn't have to be tied to the door to work properly. In this closed state, you get that 'nodraw' effect where the light and graphics bleed.

    [​IMG]

    And about this area: maybe put nobuild in the window frames to keep the sentries from being built floating? Lol, I was tempted to do it after I saw another engie do it. Your choice!

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    Also in the screenshot with the sentries, you can see the texture on the C roof is facing the wrong way.
     
  19. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    Progress has been made, displaced ground and more structures added. And the server I mentioned earlier is up and running.

    BUT!

    Even though no one has complained about, or even mentioned the size of that map I'm thinking it's a bit too big as it is and it's more a chore than anything to die as blue and run back to C frontlines. Maybe it's not so bad right now, but I believe that after an X number of rounds it can get frustrating and boring... and of course want to avoid that :)

    I did a little sketch in photoshop showing some changes I'm (probably) going to make.
    [​IMG]

    to start with I've rotated the entire A section 90° CCW. Then moved the blue spawn much closer to the actual playing field and many of the paths towards C are now much more direct and shorter

    Just rotating A and then trying to fit it in is never going to work so of course it's going to be redesigned. I got some ideas already but it's still all in my head atm.

    Here's the layout from the first post again if you want to compare: http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn220/Ravidge/cp_silvertrail/a1/cp_silvertrail_a10003.jpg

    This means that alpha 2 that I had hoped to release tomorrow will be delayed for unknown time. But I hope I can get it working for gameday (no guarantees).

    If you can make any sense of the picture, feel free to comment!
     
  20. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    cp_silvertrail_a2a released!
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=869

    Changes include:
    Ground displaced at A and B. Made both areas a lot nicer to look at/play in.
    Pretty much the entire A area has been rebuilt.
    All the paths going from A/B to C has been shortened.
    Blue spawn moved closer to the action.
    Made spawning faster for blue with each point they take.

    Planned for a3: Make a new layout for C. I'm not happy with the current one. (That's why it is still in dev textures)

    pictures!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009