cp_orange2

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by temion, Aug 10, 2010.

  1. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Over the past year and a half, i've been editing and reediting cp_orange_x3 for my clan's 24/7 server "Alpha Omega OrangeX3".

    Well, I previously uploaded a finished version here called cp_orange_final which consequently suffered from broken textures 3 months after release due to a valve patch. :facepalm:In light of this, i decided to continue work on the map. This is NOT your average dev texture map, in fact, it isn't a dev texture map at all!

    It's hard to explain just what is different. Everything might be a good way to put it. At this point every element of the map has been completely rebuilt by hand and nearly every texture present on the map is a custom one built for it. These textures are manipulations of current valve textures to fit the style of tf2 as close as possible while still having a unique look. I'll be releasing these textures once i'm done, as i'm only using a good 1/4th of the textures I am making. (they are trial and error textures. They all work and look good, but most don't look good for what i need it in game as i think it would in photoshop. So many of them remain homeless)

    I also plan on releasing the VMF of this map once it is done and making it a community map.



    There are some cool things myself and a friend are planning for this map which I will update here soon with more info and screenshots. But for now, i'm just going to let the screen shots do the talking for me.

    (Fair warning: a good portion of these textures will probably change and these will be orphaned like the handful before them. Just how I work. I love custom textures :) )

    PLEASE CHECK MY LATEST REPLIES FOR UPDATED SCREENSHOTS
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2010
  2. Karnage

    Karnage L3: Member

    Messages:
    114
    Positive Ratings:
    49
  3. Fredrik

    Fredrik L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    376
    Positive Ratings:
    149
    there's no such gamemode as "co". :)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  4. Mick-a-nator

    aa Mick-a-nator

    Messages:
    640
    Positive Ratings:
    314
    Generally, cp_orange and its many many edits doesn't go down well here. The eternal shit-pit of FPSB is where they belong. You've done well to be able to detail it, but don't expect to be taken seriously with it around here.
     
  5. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    All the difference I can really see is some texturing. Honestly, the problem with orange isn't the textures and aesthetics, it's the layout of the map.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. Bermuda Cake

    Bermuda Cake L9: Fashionable Member

    Messages:
    679
    Positive Ratings:
    192
    In screenshot one, the way the two textures blend together looks pretty bad, it's supposed to be for a ground - leaf texture, I think. You might want to re do that one with a different alpha blend (I think that's what it's called). There are some good tutorials on the forums.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    woops! typo :)

    Well, the simply "S" shape is what our server regulars really love, so thats why I've kept it. I plan on doing more to make the map more of a normal map, its still early in the process. :blush:

    Well, i made the post just to get input. I understand people hate on orange, but this isn't a dev map. It only shares the "S" shape and orange tower on control point 3. I mean, this community can see the work i've been doing for what is it, right? It's not a lost cause posting here.... right?

    Yea that part in particular has been giving me a lot of trouble, i'll see if other blend maps can help it some. I've already made 5 textures trying to get it to look good. :blushing:
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  8. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    437
    Positive Ratings:
    108
    From what i've seen in the screenshots is the same map, with some new textures, a couple of buildings whacked in the middle and that's about it. The points are the same, and the route's the same. I'm not trying to go off at you or anything but people around here generally don't like two things. a) orange_x and b) conversions.

    I understand that this is for your community, but I think you'd get a lot more constructive criticism there. Most of TF2maps.net's community won't like your map and just go off at your conversions and map choice.

    I'd think your detailing and custom textures would look a lot better on a map made and designed completely by you, not a rip off of a map people don't like.
     
  9. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    Just looking from the overhead, there are still massive sightlines and strong changes in vertical space that make it impossible to fight.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Well, as hopeless as you guys think it is, i'm going to stick with it and keep posting. Maybe instead of just being prejudice against the origin, just help me make it good? I'm not bashing anyone specifically, just saying in general.

    I want this to be a good map, worth the respect of the community. My community eats up whatever i give them and don't offer much insight. I would prefer the ideas from critics instead of praisers. Perhaps you can help me remove the elements that are really bad about the map? That would be kinda cool.

    I'm thinking that maybe enclosing the 2nd and 4th control points within interior spaces might help a bit. I still have to design these structures, but creating more internal spaces might help more. What do you think? The only things that I want to maintain is the "S" shape and the tower in the middle. Everything else I'm very flexible on.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  11. drp

    aa drp

    Messages:
    2,251
    Positive Ratings:
    2,551
    Hey there, I fixed the misspelled title as per your PM.

    I'll explain why members here are taking this map with a prejudice state of mind. We've seen many versions of orange and orange_X. It's always some texture changes here, adding a model there, and recompile and call it a day.

    Many here dont care too much for any map with the name orange in it. I myself dont mind it. I can find myself spending an hour or two if a friend is playing an orange map.

    I see you're doing a little more than what others have done in the past, and I wish you good luck and hope you finally get these lot at TF2M to play a map with orange in its name :)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  12. Mick-a-nator

    aa Mick-a-nator

    Messages:
    640
    Positive Ratings:
    314
    Quick note, its not the dev textures that make orange maps bad for serious play, its the poor layout.

    I'd also like to apologise if my post seemed offensive or prejudice.

    Ok, my opinion, just looking at the screenshots and disregarding my prejudice of cp_orange maps:

    The scale of the middle area HUGE and very very straight. yaysnipersftw. I do like the idea of a tower (vertical play done well can be very interesting and fun) but it looks too big. It either needs to be more robust and industrial, stout, large base, smaller tower or spindly and flimsy, rickety wood and metal, the minimum space inside to get up. Judging by the rest of the detailing you've done, I'd suggest the former.

    Now throwing in previous knowledge of cp_orange maps for constructive comments:

    2 points in the map are really easy to camp. I'll start with the tower top. Basically, way too easy for snipers to hammer down on the enemy team spawn. This could probably be solved with a combination of lowering the top of the tower slightly (this provides a better view of their heads over the parapet ) and more cover near spawn (this doesn't just mean chucking in a few props for people to hide behind, proper routes for people to follow, with proper obstacles coming between it and the tower). It could also be helped to some extent with the placement or spawn and the tower.
    The other place is directly to the left of spawn, over the wall. It seems the entire team clusters around that point leading to a stalemate. I believe this is caused by the location of the penultimate point. Traditionally, points follow linearly, so choke points are often bottle-necks which can be cleared with a single uber or simply a good team push. With cp_orange, the point is so far away from the flow of the map that the team is divided, with one half heading to the point (and getting butchered) and the other trying (sensibly) to relieve the pressure and push back (also resulting in a blood bath). Basically, the penultimate point needs to be brought back into the middle of that area and players should be lead through it to attack the final point. Of course this would require tweaking, especially if the middle area would be kept the same size, but is probably the best solution.

    P.S. If you're trying for a good, balanced map and want this to be tested here, I suggest renaming it first. :p
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2010
  13. FiLi

    FiLi L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    195
    Positive Ratings:
    50
    I do appreciate what you tried to do here. You should really try making your very own map. I'm sure it wouldn't be that bad :)
     
  14. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    437
    Positive Ratings:
    108
    First of all, I admire your dedication to try and make orange_x a semi-respectable map... I think you're absolutely insane and should be locked in a mental asylum... but I admire your dedication none the less. If you want to know what's bad about orange_x, here's what I, and what I think a lot of other people think.

    • Huge Sightlines - You get snipers who can shoot all the way down the length of the map and the huge tower in the middle doesn't help
    • Middle point OP - Being a huge tower sticking up the middle makes in next to impossible to climb for any attacker to climb as they generally will be mowed down as they go up to the next level.
    • Points all so far out of the way - The second point being all the way off in the corner is just a huge walk for both the defender and attacker and it's just a pain. The last point is also out of the way, past the defenders base and through a turtle-neck which makes it so much harder to attack
    • the general box shape of the map - the unnatural shape of the map is rather off putting and is harder to fill
    • The last point being so easy to defend - As mentioned earlier, the last point is almost impossible to take and almost always leads to endless or stalemate games. (I don't think I've played a single orange_x map where the game was finished)
    • A single path - This is probably one of the main problems, instead of multiple side routes to take where you can flank the enemy and use tactics, orange_x is just a continual front-line push which never ever works.
    • Large map scale - The map is way to big for the little detail in it.
    • There's probably more, I just can't think of them yet

    If you're going to try and improve this map your going to have to fix those problems. Probably try and make the map a bit smaller, shorten the tower a level and maybe make a way to get up to the top other than the inside and the absolutely suicidal run around the side. Provide flank routes, not just a couple of buildings, but a way an entire team could get behind the other. More cover is completely necessary and the cap points should be more central to the map, not out of the way. There certainly needs to be an extra entrance to each of the points, maybe a one way gate like in dustbowl.

    I don't know if any of this will help make the map slightly more respectable in the eyes of other mappers, but I hope everyone won't go off at me in having the slightest glimmer of hope for this project... Or writing this entire essay on the maps problems and what should be done.

    Good luck
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  15. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Thank you for the suggestions! I can see the problems better now that you've pointed them out, I think some of these fixes need to actually start on paper.

    I want to try to avoid a few gimmicks from other orange maps like underground trenches or large bridges. I limit myself this way, but some things I just don't see as being in the theme of the map, so i'll try and be creative.

    I'll post an update soon to see if i can resolve some/all of these issues. Thank you again for the feedback! :)
     
  16. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    OK so I'm curious what you guys think about this as the first (of many) big gameplay change(s). There are a lot of cosmetic changes since the initial screens, but today I'm trying to close up the map, make it more non-linear and add flanking possibilities.

    Each control point will get similar treatment, but so far i'm still working on aiding control point one. And of course, there is no cosmetic work done yet, just some basic texturing.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Any suggestions?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2010
  17. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    437
    Positive Ratings:
    108
    Nice breaker and looks like it allows cover of both the 2nd and middle point, not bad but I'm unsure how the walking through the windows will be, maybe make one a door.
     
  18. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Screenshots for update August 20th.
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    There is still much to do, but I'm comfortable with this set of custom textures. I will need to tweak a few areas so terrain doesn't have lines/corners but its moving along. I'm also working on enclosing the 2nd and 4th control points into their own buildings that will cover a fairly large portion of "free space" in the open field on the map. I would have waited and included it into this update but we have to let our server regulars get used to the changes. They're die hard regulars to our slowly evolving versions of orange and they will need to get used to these small gameplay changes.

    Now the question remains, how do i upload the map here? I will post the server link once we get it hosted if you are interested in seeing how it fairs with a crowd.


    Any new critiques on the changes? Insightful critiques are highly desired. Praise and flame both aren't of much value to me. Constructive, even harsh critiques are fine, as long as there is substance and insight. I want this to be a good map and i need problems pointed out to me. Thanks everyone.
     
  19. RocketRacer

    RocketRacer L1: Registered

    Messages:
    1
    Positive Ratings:
    0
    Download Unavailable WTF? :(
     
  20. temion

    temion L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    77
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Download added. Comments greatly appreciated :)