cp_lake concept

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by thesquid, Oct 18, 2010.


Do you think TF2 needs more water?

  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
  2. No

    17 vote(s)
  1. thesquid

    thesquid L1: Registered

    Positive Ratings:
    There's not enough water in TF2.

    What water there is is limited to a very few maps (Well, 2Fort, stage 3 Pipeline, Sawmill, etc); and that water is shallow and, well, boring. Underwater battles present different tactical options and setups--some weapons don't work underwater, you can attack or be attacked from any direction, and you run the risk of drowning if you're submerged for too long.

    But a lot of water can have some serious effects on class balance-- in particular, the Pyro and the Sniper. Flames don't work underwater, and the Sniper can't draw the Huntsman, and risks drowning if scoped too long. So in a water-heavy map, it's vital to provide some concessions for those two classes. Additionally, the Engineer is hurt by huge open spaces: the sentry works best when covering a limited area, so that it's hard for attackers to get a clear shot.

    To encourage mapmakers to create maps with more water, I propose a related item: the Swimmer's Snorkel, a hat or misc. item that halves drowning damage, gives the user a 10% speed increase in water, and a 10% speed decrease on land.

    With these points in mind, I came up with a concept for a map that features a lot of water.

    Enter cp_lake.

    Map layout
    Vertical cross-section
    Tower layout

    (the images include notes for glass tunnels; but after some discussion on the Steam forums, it's apparent that the Source engine won't handle that)

    All I have right now is the map design. I have zero experience with mapping in TF2 or any other game. If any more experienced mappers are interested in making this map a reality, I'd love to hear from you! And yes, I know it's a lot to ask, but I'd be happy just getting credit for the idea, as long as this map makes it into the game.

    Keep in mind that this is just an initial concept layout, so I didn't put much thought into the nitty-gritty of prop/medkit/ammo placement, spawns, or cover just yet. I put more effort into considering the tower layout and its access routes, as I feel that the midpoint will be the hardest to balance between classes. And since I'm not an experienced mapmaker, I'm not very knowledgeable with those aspects.

    If the map seems interesting, read on for a text description.

    Central to the map is the titular lake. The lake itself is relatively wide open and quite deep, with few features on the bottom. There should be some cover for Engineers to build forward bases with some degree of protection-- probably sunken boats of some sort.

    The mid control point is located in a 3-floor communications tower in the middle of the lake. The bottom level is below water level but full of air, with a pair of exits to the lake itself. The main level, just above water level, holds the control point. The upper level is not much more than a balcony with some cover, allowing an attack from above. The tower layout isn't to scale; it's mostly just to show all the access points and options. There are three bridges just above water level that grant access to the main floor; stairs on the outside of the tower leading up to the balcony level; the tunnels leading into the "basement" from the caves; and airlock-thingies (like in Well, but two-way) in the basement for interior access from the water.
    There are a couple of other things that should be on there, that I couldn't fit in the cross-section without making it too confusing. For example:
    -stairs leading up from the water
    -props and cover inside the tower--not just an empty room with a CP

    Bridges connect the tower to canyons on either side, where RED and BLU's bases lie past a cavern complex. A third bridge leads to a bunker-style doorway leading to the control centre, which is inaccessible. Submerged tunnels also lead to the canyon cave complexes from the central tower. These routes provide long sightlines for the Sniper, but should contain scattered crates and equipment for cover, and for the Pyro to set up ambushes. The Sniper functions better on the bridges, while the Pyro prefers the sealed underwater tunnels where his victims can't douse the flames.

    The second points lie within cavern complexes just above water level, carved deep into the walls of the canyons. Tunnels connect the main control point room to the bunker entrance, the canyon river, and the bases. There are also stairs that lead down to the underwater tunnels. A one-way gate leads underwater toward the midpoint.

    Between the second and third points, tunnels (underground) and catwalks (on the canyon walls) connect the caverns and the base. The RED and BLU bases themselves (and final control points) are atop the canyon walls in a hydroelectric dam complex providing power for the tower.

    Of course, the main attraction of cp_lake would be the possibilities and tactics provided by the canyon rivers and the lake itself: the water provides cover from surface attackers, and swimmers need not fear Pyros or Snipers. Very deep water provides a unique 3-D combat environment where attacks can come from any direction.

    Anyone with questions--or better yet, interested mappers!--can post here, or contact me via PM for more information.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  2. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Positive Ratings:
    It would take one hell of a mapper to make this fun. I agree water is needed but water in this excess may not be the best idea.
  3. Retroid

    Retroid L5: Dapper Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Every map I've seen with lots of water in so far has been a bit poop, so if you think you can design something so good that it makes up for the lack of speed, boring palatte and the crazy advantages certain classes will get then go for it!

    BUT I imagine you'll get so far into making your map, hit a massive limitation you weren't counting on and end up scrapping it. I'd design a normal map first before you head out on this revoltionary new map idea. Walk before you run, I've been there.
  4. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Positive Ratings:
    Water would be pretty interesting and i'd use it tons more if it didn't nerf the pyro so hard. and the demoman a little too.
  5. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Yeah, water pretty much nerfs classes way to much, and despite valve having quite a strong support of modders compared to other developers, I doubt they would implement a new item just for the small part of the community that build maps. Also, If they did, you might get a few good maps that involve water, maybe something like your design, but the amount of horrible, poor, gimmicky maps that would be developed would far outweigh those good ones. I know this is kind of Ironic since I'm currently working on a map heavily based around water, but I don't think that water ever was, or ever will be a very good thing, in large amounts, for tf2.
  6. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Positive Ratings:
    Water sucks in every video game ever made.

    And the heavy is way too good underwater. Demo is all but useless.
  7. Moose

    Moose L6: Sharp Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Water is boring. You move slowly, are vulnerable to scouts, engineers, and heavy, can't use projectiles for the most part, can't dodge, and can't even use most classes in the first place. There might be a way to make water fun and change my mind, but I don't see it happening.
  8. Remnic

    Remnic L2: Junior Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Water ruins the concept of TF2 since all classes will move at the same speed and have less control of their movements. Water in Valve maps is only limited to detailing purposes and immersion and should only be used as little as possible.

    For example, the water below the bridge in CTF_2fort is mainly used to cushion the player's fall if he were to fall off the top of the bridge or from the battlements of the bases. Other maps like Well and Sawmill used water for flanking purposes outside of the main combat area(s).

    In short, think wisely before adding water to your map.
  9. thesquid

    thesquid L1: Registered

    Positive Ratings:
    I'm intrigued by the responses. When I posted this on the Steam forums months ago, it was received very positively. It's interesting that, from the responses so far, it seems that players want more water, but mappers don't.
  10. FiLi

    FiLi L4: Comfortable Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Well if you think logically (like most mappers do) water is a gameplay-killer

    Also, [​IMG]

    And yes I am 14 so this is somewhat funny to me
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  11. Draco18s

    Draco18s L9: Fashionable Member

    Positive Ratings:
    15 votes is hardly a consensus, but I do agree with two points:

    1) Water needs to come up more
    2) Water needs to suck less before 1 can happen

    So I voted "no" because I'm pretty sure 2 isn't happening.