CP_Driftwood_Rat_Not even alpha

Discussion in 'WIP (Work in Progress)' started by Sgt Frag, Jun 6, 2008.

  1. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Well, here it is. The first posted image of my wip.

    Gonna be a oldwest ghost town. Rat map, about 1/3 scale player. I want the player big enpough they can get around the whole town. I plan on having each (major) building a cap point. Player can jump onto chairs and then onto tables, etc...
    Saloon, Jail, Hotel, Church, etc...

    Possibly 5 points. Red defending style so I don't have to worry as much about balanced symmetry. Like dustbowl but without different stages I think. Would be hard to block off areas. Will require a few foward spawns for blu and a few backward spawns for red.

    Everything is basically brushes right now 'cept the wagon wheel and displacements. I plan on making alot of models, I'll make em scaled for this map and regular size for anyone who wants to use em elsewhere. Things like the stairs and posts will probably be objects too, I'll see how FPS is when I get further.

    Currently the stairs can be jumped up and have 'ramp' supports along the sides to make em easy to get up. I want to have stairs for looks, but most likely they will end up player clip ramps for gameplay.

    ------
    EDIT--
    Added a few more lights and brushes and went to compile. Currently have one big box around level (I know, CRINGE), but it makes it easy to add/take stuff away/change stuff without having to worry about sealing void all the time.

    Took FOREVER to compile. Guess it's time to clean up some. Basically started sealing in the street from huge skybox. Made EVERYTHING func_detail, all the walkways, balconies. Everything I thought might be helping cut up the vis leafs into smaller areas. Hid all that and sealed everything left with no draw brushes. Now only the main building walls and floors (and doors) are world brushes. The sky still isn't sealed off but I need to finish the buildings first.

    Compiled in just a few minutes. :) Yeah, I'm still learning. Anyway, the FPS is runnng around 150-160 with no hint brushes. Curious as I hadn't checked out the FPS yet, went back a save before this work and was getting 100-150 fps. So I actually did alot more good than I thought.

    I've got a ways to go but this is the saloon.
    [​IMG]


    A shot inside on the edge trim. The door to right is closet, spawn room is inside wall inside closet. They can come out closet or go up elevator in wall and come out on balcony above.
    Chair/Tables are place holder brushes, but the displacement table cloth will probably stay.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2008
  2. LeJean

    LeJean L1: Registered

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    First: Sorry, but I don't like kinda "funmaps" for TF2 - in my opinion it simply destroys the whole gameplay. And a rats-map is a funmap.
    Second: Did you call it rats-map, because it was your aim or just because you figured out that you failed proportioning correctly after your first compile?
    Third: Did you really block out everything? The chairs, doors and stuff? Where are the models?
    Fourth: HDR does not make every map look good.
    Fifth: Even a defense-type map needs a lot of work to be balanced. I'd say it needs more work than balancing a mirror-type cp map. Different stages on a map do rock, so why not use this possibility?

    Sorry, if this comment might seem a bit hard, but I hope you don't take everything too seriously but at the same time don't miss my intention. Most people think creating a map is having the idea and doing some click-work in the editor and whoo - there it is! But it's a lot more than that. If you really like to build a rats-type map, you need to find a modeler and texture-artist who help you creating the athmospheric environment as you want it to be. Tables, chairs, doors, roofs, foliage, rocks and more detail and gameplay stuff that has to have the correct size, nice textures and normal maps and stuff.
    Please take some more time to design all that stuff and please do not simply build everything with 6-sided blocks to look it at least a little similar to what it should be.

    Hope to see better (and more!) pictures the next time ;)
    Jean
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    With such a minor scale difference, without "rats" in the map name, people would probably have thought that you were just terrible at scaling.

    If you're going with the rats gimmick, why not try just creating a large building, like a bar/saloon. Half and Half's rarely work. This just looks like a confused idea. I don't mean to rip at your work, i just want to give you some advice before you put any more work into this, because it looks like you've already spent a fair few days on this.

    You'll be able to concentrate on your building theme a lot easier too, instead of trying to accomodate each seperate building with your attention. You're taking away both the aesthetics of a rat and normal map with this. Without noticably feeling like a rat, it just looks agitating to the eye. Like you're a migdet.
     
  4. Earl

    Earl L6: Sharp Member

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    Make sure the direction of wood grain lines up to whatever you're building. E.g. legs of chairs, doorframes, etc...
     
  5. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    God I love this forum.

    So many positive words of encouragement in every post I've read on everyones map threads.

    LeJean. First I'd like to say that I am fine with constructive criticism. I have made MANY thief levels and alot of them were 'outside the norm' of Thief a bit. But they were all quite well accepted and some of them are rated amongst the community as all time favs, after years of playtime.
    Not only have I done maps for Thief, but I've done over 200 objects for Thief, Darkmod (Doom3 Thief Mod), Morrowind... Many of these have also been rated highly. I'm not tooting my own horn, it's just everything you said is basically,"do you know what you are doing?"
    My levels have appeared on 5 international game magazine CD/DVD's and projects I was involved in were recently named in another article recently. I was on my way to working at Arkane Studios when a family member fell very ill, France is along ways away so I declined that opportunity.

    I do know what it takes to design levels, this may be my first for TF2, but I have played many custom maps for TF2 so far that all bring something different to the table.

    If you had read my post thouroughly, obviously none of you did, you would see that I am going to make many models for this. However, the only one I've done so far is a wagon wheel, just to see if I could properly import and object into the engine before I built a mod around an idea I could not finish. The reason the table/chair leg tex is not aligned is that precise reason, why spend time aligning tex on simple placeholder models?

    It doesn't really matter to me if you like 'fun maps' or not. I do distinguish 'rat maps' as different than fun maps if they are designed for gameplay. That is what I am trying to do, I am carefully considering what I would do for each class if I was playing and trying to design around that. How far can which classes jump, where can spies hide, where can engies build...
    To me 'fun maps' or 'gimmick maps' are things like surf maps, baseball maps... Maps that have noting to do with TF2 gameplay at all. You don't have to be full size in 2Fort to have fun playing TF2. But surfing isn't TF2 gameplay. Maybe people have a hard time thinking outside the box so they cry 'no fair' if someone is doing something they can't understand. Whether or not you like the scale or HDR lighting they have no effect on how team game play can be in this enviroment.

    I would've been a major jacka$$ to build terrain then compile, then go , doh! wrong scale, maybe I'll call it a rat map. Oh, then again you didn't read my post did you? I chose this scale for a very specific reason, and stuck to the scale accordingly, thus I must have some idea what I'm doing.
    I choose this scale (again) because I wanted to make an old west town (hence not alot of buildings like most TF2 maps...) and I like the skewed perspective of a 'rat style' map. However rat maps are scaled so much so that all classes excpet demo and soldier can be at a disadvantage hieght wise. With this scale all players will be able to jump onto a chair, then onto a table, run across wall trim and jump onto the bar... Scouts, demos, and soldiers will all be able to access lower roofs...
    Maybe I'll call it a 'Midget map' so no one is confused.

    Another reason I choose this scale is that I want the gameplay to proceed through the whole town, and at this scale the CP's are a very good distance away from each other and 'housed' in good sized locations for good cap fights.
    I also wanted to have some outdoor gameplay along with the indoor gameplay. If I had choose to do a smaller scale it would've been an indoor one building map.
    There is already a Kitchen map and a bathroom map like that.

    Whether or not HDR makes all maps look good or not really doesn't matter at this point, I just added an enviro light and wanted to see what the settings look like. I have already changed the sun angle and will probably adjust it more. That's all after the terrain is done though.

    But then again, this was only a few clicks 'woohoo'. Everybody's gonna love my 'gimmick' map :) It's gonna have rollercoasters, a place to surf, might even have a sniper only zone on the last cap point!!!!!!
    I do intend for this to be my first 'TF2 released map" so maybe I should can it and start over which seems to be regualr advice here. Actually I have meesed with the editor enough to know the basics, I also have a TFC map that is about 75% laid out terrain wise which I plan to finish after this one, so my advice to myself is not to give up but to work on and finish what I have started. If you wanna play cool, if you wanna host cool, if not, I'll survive.

    Now don't take these words wrong either, that is just my opinion and where I am coming from. I'll deffinately keep an eye out for you projects though, maybe I can pick something up.
     
  6. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

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    It appears you may need to set up a tonemap controller to stop that hdr from looking wonky or hurting the eyes, other then that, its hard to tell anything since i guess everything will be modeled at a later time.


    Also, you need to work on taking critisism better, in your first post you actually note how your still learning the editor, then in your rebuttal post you pretty much tell everyone to fuck off, you know what your doing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2008
  7. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

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    personally I rather enjoyed his 2nd post, ive got quite tired of hearing people (person is this case) bitch about the appearances in early versions of maps along with massive hate for anything different
    so...right on :thumbup1:

    ill wait for some gameplay before I comment on the map
     
  8. Snipergen

    Snipergen L13: Stunning Member

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    so your' gonna name it cp_driftwood_midget?
     
  9. Ace

    Ace L3: Member

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    I think it looks good from the screenies, the fact that it has "not even alpha" in the title might just hint to some of the dimmer people that the lights etc are not going to be finished alas no (next time put it in bold and try a bigger font - might get through that way).

    My god LeJean have you been smoking crack, you have completly ripped the shit into this map and from what? 2 screenies.
    If you didn't know there was already adiscussion about how to size it and what would be best.
    Pre-alpha, normally implies pre-props, well it does in my book, don't know what you're reading from.
    Also if you read the post you'd see he wrote balanced symmetry, as in same for both sides, not "oh sod it, its only a dustbowl style maps - sniperz rockz".

    IMO, for the stage it is at it looks good, I like the style and size, its nice to see something new, but really nice to see a map of that style with 'real' textures and not some crappy orange map. My main comment is what Earl said, make sure the wood grain line up (legs of chairs) and can't see but it may be off on the beams, rotate the textures the same amount that you have rotated the beam to get them to line up nicely
     
  10. AWESOME-O

    AWESOME-O L10: Glamorous Member

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    reminds me:

    [​IMG]
    MIDGETS!
     
  11. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    lolzl337, dammit, now I wanna make a midget fight ring :)
    That face slide is hilarious!

    Narkissus, I don't think I was telling everyone to F-off.
    I think I was quite contained and mature in my response and like I said, I am good at taking constructive criticism. But I really don't see anything constructive about LeJeans post. Wether it was aimed at myself or another mapper. It was pretty much 'you are doing this all wrong, you should do it my way. Just because he hads the 'don't take this the wrong way' clause doesn't make it constructive.

    I am still learning this editor but that doesn't make me a jacka$$ who doesn't know how to build to scale, light, align textures, add props, or design gameplay like the first 3 posters implied. Maybe it's a 'midget map', but that will only matter to SOME people. Some people enjoy Orange maps... To each his own.

    Anyway, I appreciate the other comments. Those are very early screens and I usually don't post pics of my work at such a rough and early stage, but I thought it might be kindof cool to keep track of my work as I go. I've enjoyed watching the progress of other maps on this board and basically this was meant to be a progress thread.
    I probably should've linked to the former discussion on size/style, but Ace has now so...

    I did quite a bit more work. Softened the light and upped the diffuse ALOT. Have another building front and more trim on building to left of pick. Made placeholder trough and 'horse tie-downs(forgot name)'. Added some rocks... I'll probably work a bit more on Wed. and post an updated screeny then.
     
  12. LeJean

    LeJean L1: Registered

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    Oh dear!
    Didn't want to call you a noob or something like that. If there has already been a discussion concerning the size of this map - I'm sorry I missed it.
    But nice justification though..

    Sorry for my ignorance, but your first post simply reads like "Hey, I've found the editor and clicked some brushes. Looks great, doesn't it?". Most post of this type are written by people who do really have no plan of what they're doing and talking about.
    Perhaps it was a bit too early to post those two screenshots in order to show off your idea. That's what most "first maps" and "great ideas" look like - and I'm around mapping since 8 years for now, I've read a lot of posts like that.
    I bet I'm not the only one who understood your presentation like I did, so please post some more stuff. Models, more screenshots, terrain work and that stuff. Seriously - wouldn't you have thought similarly reading your post once more with a bit more distance?

    Didn't mean to take your whole work (and life) down, sorry for that.
    Reading my post more impartial and not fearing to aim each sentence for your forehead would have let you seen the constructive part. Take breath and cool down.

    please mention earlier next time.

    By the way: I've read your post a couple of times before writing my own one. And I'm still sure it reads like one of those posts described above.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
  13. psihomir

    psihomir L4: Comfortable Member

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    Wow mate, that looks great - especially for an alpha. You could easily pass it off as a beta, given the looks ;) My main gripe is the same as Earl's - the wood's "grain" in certain places looks odd (for example on the chairs' bars). Other than that, I love the ghost town theme - fits TF2's style perfectly without even needing any custom assets. The gameplay idea sounds interesting, though you should probably have tested it with a bit more alpha-ish version, just to make sure it would play smooth. Although I don't see a reason why it shouldn't. Looking forward to a release ;)
     
  14. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Hey LeJean, I'm not pissed so no I won't 'take a breath and cool down'. I don't think my posts sounded like that.

    I am sorry if I can't post a rebutal to your post without you thinking I'm hot headed about it.

    I simply think you don't read very good and jumped to conclusions and offered harsh criticism instead of constructive criticism. No worries, be like that if you want.

    I have been around gaming forums alot too and can easily pick the type of posts you mention. However there are many things I said in my first post which would've clued you in that it might not be one of those posts, for example:

    'here are pics of my WIP'
    'right now alot of stuff is world brushes but I plan to make ALOT OF MODELS', only the wagon wheel is one now because I wanted to test it.
    'the scale is this size BECAUSE...'

    Usually the posts like you mention go more like this:

    'I've got a great NEW idea never done before EVER!!! I only need programmers, modelers, mappers and texture artists to do it for me!!!.
    I'm gonna add cars, it's gonna be like sims but better. All weapons will be new and improved. I've never touched an editor before but this will be done by the Fall of '08.'
    ----------
    Anyway, still no hard feelings. This isn't really where I wanted this thread to go so this will be my last post to this end, feel free to comment if you so choose.
    ------------
    psihomir,
    You're right that TF2 lends itself easily to an 'Old West' setting. I've never done a level in a western style so it's pretty fun. Most of my stuff has been medivel so it's a nice change of pace.
    Unfortunately the object decompiler doesn't seem to work with Vista, so instead of decompiling and resizing alot of models I'm gonna have to make them from scratch. I'll be using TF2 tex in as many of them as possible to keep file size small. In cases like the cowskull I will probably try to match the objects wireframe as close as possible. In other cases I will reuse models I have released for other engines and try to make the textures TF2 friendly.

    yeah, chairs are gonna be modelled...thus properly textured and not as boring looking.
    Like the post title said though, this is a 'not even alpha' stage. meaning basically that I'm just starting to flesh it out. It's still quite aways from any type of test other than myself running around trying to make sure it's working (for me) for all classes.

    There will be some 'wide open spaces' but I've been keeping a good eye on areas in maps I've been playing and don't think any of my areas are more sniper friendly than most maps, I'm certianly keeping an eye on that aspect as I hate getting sniped as much as anyone. And I'm a fair sniper at best so it's not like I'd have an advantage.

    In the few spots where snipers do have good advantage they are out in the open, or somewhere where they can be backstabbed, etc...
    Those are the kinds of things I am trying to account for for all classes.
     
  15. Ace

    Ace L3: Member

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    Keep up the screenshot posting, I like to see how things are going and how people progress.
     
  16. LeJean

    LeJean L1: Registered

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    Misunderstanding on both sides, I guess. Hope you don't miff my criticism too much.. English is not my native language, so I think this could be the cause. I don't want no discussion about this, either.

    Hope to see nice pictures and models later on, I'll be watching this thread to have a look for your results! ;)
     
  17. Vander

    Vander L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    You guys are too long-winded. Nice screenies! Looking forward to seeing how it turns out!
     
  18. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    Well, got a bit more work done today, not alot to show for it unfortunately. A little touch-up here and there. A good part of it done after these shots taken and some of it behind the chapel.

    Got the roof done. Tweaked the HDR some, has a bit to go.
    In this shot the chapel roof was in the skybox, you can see the split where the top is in skybox and bottom isn't. Not sure what's up with the lighting on it. Tried several ways, it is now just on the building and I made room in the sky for it. The building on the right is probably just filler, might put a 'merchantile' sign on it?
    [​IMG]

    A more recent shot back at the saloon, standing on trim of chapel. You can walk on trim all the way around and there are several mouse holes to get in the church from the trim.
    Behind the church is a small cemetary with what will probably be the final cap point.
    [​IMG]

    Players can run under the saloon deck and stairs to get by saloon unseen or to take cover from snipes.

    Again, all the props you see will be modelled eventually. Hitching post, trough, table, chair, shutters... Oh yeah, those barrells are func_details at the moment too. Most of that's so easy to mock up in the editor just to check for sizes, etc... Most of that'll be pretty quick work all at once in 3d, probably easier to do it all at once.

    Back to work...
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2008