cp_dream_vacation

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Zarokima, Aug 7, 2010.

  1. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Here's my first attempt at mapping, a 5-point push map. Since this is a community devoted to mapping, I'm hoping I'll be able to get better response than the general gaming community I'm a part of.

    Some notes:
    There's an upper cliff area for Soldiers/Demomen around the midpoint that connects with the second/fourth point areas. Changed in a5.
    There are several alternate routes between the second, third, and fourth points.
    The roof of the middle building is easily accessible through Scout jumps, and with a little work the Engy can get a base up there by tossing a teleporter on top of the nearby crates. As of a6, all classes can jump across the crates onto the roof.
    There's a deathpit around/under the last points. Don't jump in there, but every class is able to jump across.
    I'm worried the upper area around mid might be a bit overpowered, but since there's no cover from Snipers I think it balances out. Changed in a5.
    I think the last point may be too camp-friendly, but I haven't been able to come up with another decent alternative route. The 2-second cap time should be forgiving enough to allow one solid push to make it, though. Fixed in a3.

    Any and all constructive criticism is welcome, as I want this to be as successful as possible.

    -----------FULL CHANGELOG-------------------

    a2: Added lighting, some texture fixes.

    a3:
    The last point has been moved down, with the walkway now wrapping around to the back and ramps leading up to the second point area
    A barrel stack has been added near the second point as an Engy spot.
    The pathway near third spawn has been shortened a bit so the entrance/exit is entirely in range of a Sentry on the near corner of middle building's roof.
    Various texture changes and lighting improvements.
    Probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.

    a4:
    Added a small lake underneath the middle building
    Upper cliff area now has nobuild
    Got rid of the stairway shortcut that drops down between the first and second points.
    Added shortcuts between the first and third points that are available depending on which team owns the second point.
    Some texture changes.

    a5:
    Middle building now has some windows.
    Brought the upper cliff path down, converting it to a tunnel. It's also accessible to all classes now. The cliff area is now inaccessible.
    Reverted those dynamic shortcut paths back to the staircase that comes out between the first and second point.
    Those twisty ramps near the first point have been replaced by a simple slope.
    Started converting some cave stuff to displacements.
    Added an upper portion to first spawn that comes out on the walkway.
    Fixed a sightline issue with two of the tunnels.

    a6:
    Added a dip in the cliffs near storage containers at mid.
    Added walkways up to the cliffs at mid. This and the dip allow players of any class to just walk up.
    Added an upper room near the first point.
    Deleted stairway that came out between first and second points.
    Added vents connecting the lower area between second and third points, a hallway between first and second points, and the upper room near the first point. These start off one-way due to airflow (also making it a possible shortcut between first and third points), but this is turned off after the second point is captured, providing an alternate route to the last point for the attackers. Airflow is turned back on should the defending team recapture their second point. There are also signs to indicate whether airflow is on or off, courtesy of HellJumper777.
    Expanded the windows on the building at mid.
    Turned around the walkway at second point leading to the upper tunnel.

    TODO:
    BETTER NAME!!!
    Provide justification that this area is worth fighting over.
    LOTS of displacement work; caves aren't square.
    Add supports to floating walkways.
    Expand ventilation system with Inaccessible vents, and fallen vent covers around open vents.
    Recolor the dirty_bomb_cart to get a red version for the red side.
    Various other detail work.

    CREDITS:
    Airflow sign: HellJumper777.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2010
  2. Godslayer57

    Godslayer57 L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    IS that grass in screenshot one from hl2?! If so change it Hl2 and TF2 are completely different art styles and should not mix, when looking for texture use 'tf' in keywords when searching for textures.
     
  3. Garner

    Garner L4: Comfortable Member

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    Indeed, looks like HL2 :(

    Use "tf" in the filter when searching for textures, and it will list all the TF2 related textures. Looks good for a first attempt, keep it up :)
     
  4. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Wow, two responses already -- I wasn't expecting any until after I woke up this afternoon. This community's looking pretty awesome from the start.

    I used the HL2 grass because I don't like any of the TF2 grass; it doesn't look grassy enough. I didn't think that bit of texture mixing would matter much. cp_follower has decent grass (albeit intermixed with dirt), but I couldn't find anything to make it look like that. I'm probably just being a noob and overlooking something, though.
     
  5. Bermuda Cake

    Bermuda Cake L9: Fashionable Member

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    try the grass from lumberyard or from sawmill?
     
  6. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

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    Don't wish to be rude, but you cannot call it beta 2 without at least attempting to light the map. Read this to learn how to add light. You'll definitely need a light_environment and some light_spots. You'll be surprised at how much of a huge difference it will make
     
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  7. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    I loaded up sdk_arena_lumberyard and applied that same texture to my ground, but it didn't look the same. I played around with the options, but apparently I'm doing something wrong. And it's not just this texture. You know all those that are blendXtograss? The grass doesn't show up for any of them, just the other part.
    Here's a pic showing the texture used and how it appears on the ground face. What am I doing wrong here? The only thing I noticed different between my ground and Valve's is that Lumberyard used displacements for the ground, where as mine is currently just a brush.


    I messed around with lighting a bit, but since there's not much skybox exposure the caves need a lot of lights within to make anything visible at all, so I decided to just call it for b2 and focus on lighting for b3. The map is fully playable and aside from some tweaks as needed the gameplay-affecting changes should be pretty much done, so I didn't think it was incomplete enough for the alpha label.
     
  8. Grim Tuesday

    aa Grim Tuesday

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    You need to convert them to displacements, and paint on the alpha. Thats how you get the grass out of the dirt.

    This is definatly an alpha, though. Without lighting, no one will play, you hardly know how the map plays, so it is definatly an alpha. Around here, alpha ends once you have no more dev textures, and are no longer making major changes. Lighting is one such change.
     
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  9. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Forgive my inexperience from which that misunderstanding arose; I've restarted the versioning from a1 now.
     
  10. AgeNt_

    AgeNt_ L5: Dapper Member

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    for your very first map, you have a lot of height to the map. which is not normal for beginners. (i started mapping for counterstrike) although you still have some long sight-lines.

    I like the building in the first picture, with the hole in the roof, it gives soldiers/demos more edge.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2010
  11. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Update! I added lighting and fixed the grass and some other textures. The screenshots came out darker than the in-game render for some reason. It's a little dim, but not as much as it seems in the screenshots; it's bright enough to see clearly, but dark enough to provide a more cave-like atmosphere.

    Is height a bad thing? It's mostly because I wanted that upper Soldier/Demoman area. I'm not terribly happy with how the caves are currently pretty much straight in, so I'll probably better familiarize myself with displacements by moving the last areas down some, which will add some more height difference.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  12. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    A3 sees some big changes, and I'm much happier with this version. Any criticism is welcome, as I'm running out of ideas and need to know what should be changed/trashed and what should stay (though of course it's difficult to really say without another playtest)

    I do have a question not really pertaining to the map, though.
    What exactly constitutes a change from alpha to beta, so I don't screw up versioning again?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2010
  13. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    So...that's it? Two updates, and neither generates any response. Did my noob mistakes in the beginning (which I'm grateful were pointed out and corrected) doom the map to failure in this community, or what?

    How is the lighting? Are things bright enough, while retaining a cave-like atmosphere?

    What about all the paths? Do they provide adequate choice for attack while still allowing good defense?

    Is the upper area at mid an enabler of overpowered spam, or does the lack of cover from Snipers make it an unappealing area?

    Did I overlook any other issues?
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  14. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    If you're pictures are updated, then 90% of what I have to say is this: the map is too tight. Ironically the opposite of a map I just commented on, you don't have a lot of open space for the players to run around in, case and point being mid, where props block most of the passageways. I suggest (unfortunately) expanding a lot of the spaces you have, as well as removing some of the corridors connecting mid to the bases. In place of the corridors, more interesting geometry could be added.

    Sadly map expansion and contraction is a lengthy process, but thankfully your map is mostly right angles & detail props so it should take eons :p

    Side note: I didn't know if you said you did or did not know how to paint alpha.

    EDIT: Also, we can only provide so much feedback from looking at your map or running around it alone. Go to the events section and sign up for a gameday so you can get your map in some playtests :D
     
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  15. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    The pics were all taken on the current version, except I had to compile a version without that upper grassy path to get the overhead shot (the upper area blocks the view of the cave layout otherwise).

    "Tight" is something I haven't heard before, having had more problems with being too big. And just from running around with the Sentry blueprint, range looks like it'll limit Engineers more than not having a wide enough view (which is why I set up those barrels near point 2 to provide a sentry spot). Regardless, this does give me something else to look out for.

    I do like having those shipping crates near the building at mid to provide a way for Engineers to get to the roof (which should provide the best Sentry spots). The logs allow players to jump up to the first level of the shipping crates (debating whether I should clip those so you can just walk up), and utilizing the box there even a Heavy can jump across the gap. However, I do see what you're saying there, and I've been thinking about adding a small lake and putting the building on supports so it stays above (i.e, stays exactly where it is now). You've made me decide to go for it.:thumbup1:

    I'm not really sure how to establish the paths through there without corridors, since a big part of the map is supposed to be the caves. I definitely want the first two points in-cave, but caves don't just immediately open up into a big room, so I can't really move the cave entrance back very much. I'm drawing a blank, but would love to hear any suggestions.

    I figured that out after the first version I made with fancier pathways was way too big, so during this stage where I'm still working on the layout I'm trying to keep it simple for that very reason. ;)

    Once I get something that works well (no earlier than beta, definitely) I'll convert the brushwork to displacements and make it look like a cave should.

    I didn't at first, but after Grim Tuesday pointed out I needed to convert to displacement, that gave me the starting point I needed to figure it out.

    That's why the early comments complain of HL2 grass; all the TF2 grass requires alpha painting. :blushing:

    I'm aware of Gameday, but I want to make sure I didn't do anything that obviously needs correcting before I sign up. I'd hate to waste people's time with a map that could/should have easily been improved beforehand just from having people look at it. I'm probably being too overzealous about "it must be good before I ask a bunch of people to play it," but I suppose that's better than being on the other end of that spectrum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  16. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Updated.

    The lake at mid should get rid of some of the "tightness" absurdistof mentioned (and I think it's pretty cool addition now that it's done:cool1:). It provides plenty of room to move around, but the depth prevents any Sentry there from being very useful.

    The second big change I wasn't too sure about, but I consulted with two people and they both liked the idea, so wtf :unsure:. There are shortcuts between 1/5 and 3 that open up and close off depending on who owns 2/4. So, at the beginning both teams can take this path and rush to mid. Then if Red keeps pushing and takes 4, Blue's lower path will close off and a stairway/upper room will open up so Red can come out on Blue's walkway above 5. These routes allow the respective team to get to their goal point faster, but at the cost that it doesn't go near the point they need to defend. At the moment, these paths are two-way, allowing the enemy to come through if unused and thus encouraging aggressiveness.

    I'm also submitting this version for Gameday this Friday.
     
  17. Dain

    Dain L3: Member

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    [​IMG]
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    (that should read "plateau")
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    Wow, thanks for being so extensive with the criticism. I wasn't expecting that.

    The upper walkways were a holdover from earlier versions, before I moved the last point down with the two slopes. Apparently I didn't think it through enough about the advantage it would give attackers.

    I really like the idea of replacing the plateau with a tunnel to the first cliff level. That would allow me to open it up to all the classes without issue.

    The light bulb is under there to make light. It's dark without the light. >_>
     
  19. Fredrik

    Fredrik L6: Sharp Member

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    No! don't get rid of the upper part! :D
     
  20. Zarokima

    Zarokima L69: Deviant Member

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    I'm not going to trash it, just maybe move it down some and definitely add a spawn exit up there. It did provide a bit too much of an advantage.