Could Valve make Red payload possible?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by XFunc_CaRteR, Dec 6, 2009.

  1. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    248
    Positive Ratings:
    17
    I did this payload map (pl_industry) where Red is pushing a payload into Blu territory.

    I had to hack the logic_auto entity to the following:

    OnMapSpawn --> sspl_gamerules --> SetBlueTeamGoalString --> #Goldrush_red_final_goal

    OnMapSpawn --> sspl_gamerules --> SetRedTeamGoalString --> #Goldrush_blue_final_goal

    This way, the Red and Blu introductions are right - i.e. the game tells Red players to move the bomb forward to destroy the Blu base, and Blu players to stop the bomb.

    But then we played the alpha for the first time last night, on a linux box, and it crashed.

    I posted this over here, and Dravu said that when you play MP on a linux box, there might be an issue with the team_train_watcher. The team_train_watcher works when I play locally, but maybe that makes it crash on a linux box.

    So it might be the team_train_watcher that prevents a Red payload map from playing on a linux server. If that's so, then it's not really possible to do a Red payload map, as that entity currently is. Which totally sucks. There's no way I can go back and switch the bomb to Blu - it makes no sense in the entire look, feel and setup of the map I made.

    A Boojum Snark made a Red payload gametype library, but if this is true, you might not be able to use it at all.

    Could we get Valve to make a Red payload version of the team_train_watcher entity? Or to do a logic_auto that has Red payload goal on it?
     
  2. Monster Killer

    Monster Killer L1: Registered

    Messages:
    49
    Positive Ratings:
    5
    They should have now as they make plr maps where both teams have a payload so there should be something for the red team to do that.
     
  3. gamemaster1996

    gamemaster1996 L13: Stunning Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Positive Ratings:
    131
    I wouldn't ask valve i'd ask a scripter. :)
     
  4. Nutomic

    Nutomic L11: Posh Member

    Messages:
    888
    Positive Ratings:
    177
    They could sure do something about it, but i highly doubt they will.
     
  5. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

    Messages:
    664
    Positive Ratings:
    667
    The game is meant to play with Blu attacking and Red defending, it's just how it works. I'm sure you can easily switch it around but there's really no point
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. Nutomic

    Nutomic L11: Posh Member

    Messages:
    888
    Positive Ratings:
    177
    You can not easily turn it around, as the payload start and the house are hardcoded in their colors.
     
  7. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    248
    Positive Ratings:
    17
    When you supply a set of tools to artists, include level designers, you can't second guess them. That's fatalistic - like the guy who proposed shutting down the patent office in the late 1800s because "everything that's going to be invented already has been". If you're making the new version of Photoshop you can't say, "Well, we'll put in a black pencil but not a white one because no one will ever need a white pencil tool." You have no idea what the future holds, or what creative applications of tools someone will come up with.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  8. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    248
    Positive Ratings:
    17
    I just hacked it: gave the Red team the Blu role, and vice-versa. It plays (at least locally), but the team_train_watcher still looks like the payload is owned by Blu.
     
  9. Nutomic

    Nutomic L11: Posh Member

    Messages:
    888
    Positive Ratings:
    177
    Thats what i meant. You can switch the team's roles, but players will be confused by the hud.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  10. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    But you don't NEED RED team to attack. That's why BLU team attacks. There are cases where you would need a white pencil, but RED team is the exact same as BLU. Why not just stick to the accepted practice?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  11. Rikka

    Rikka L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    207
    Positive Ratings:
    210
    It's easier for everyone if they can just join the server and know that when they join the blu team, they're going to be on the offense.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  12. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    248
    Positive Ratings:
    17
    Well, making a game level is not an "I need to" thing. It's an "I want to" thing.

    Jesus. You don't question an artistic impulse with "justify to me how it needs to be done". For gawd's sake. This ain't engineering or accounting. It's game design. Haven't you taken any art theory courses or anything?

    It's like re-invention.

    Does Valve "need" to update any of the classes? Do they "need" to make new weapons or hype up the Soldier/Demo war? Nope. They want to, and we want them to.

    And we play TF2 because we *want* to. And we make levels because we *want* to (the few guys who get paid also want to do it too).

    So I want to make a Red payload map. So what is wrong with that?

    Besides, if you go to my map, the whole idea of the map is totally lost if you turn it back into a Blu payload map like Goldrush, Badwater, Hoodoo, Borax, Frontier (and so on). It just doesn't make any sense as a Blu payload map. Check it out. You will see...

    Also, Red isn't the same as Blu - it has a totally different art style.
     
  13. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

    Messages:
    1,242
    Positive Ratings:
    393
    1 question: Is it worth the trouble?

    I mean, come on. I respect your efforts in trying to do this but it's going to be a pain in the ass to set it up, and you are going to get nonstop complains that the map is confusing. I don't see how this is going to help the map at all.
     
  14. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    So put it back to blue and stop complaining about how a good thing needs to be changed. If I've played two maps in the whole of TF2, both of them being A/D maps, I'd assume that BLU team will always attack. But when I'm placed as a defender, my whole belief of attack and defense is ruined.

    No, but I've sure as hell taken game design courses, and what you're doing is bad. The two teams are exactly the same for a reason, it creates a library in the reader's mind. They associate BLU team with attacking and RED with defending. When you break that library, users become confused and annoyed.

    The reason Valve updated the classes was to add some variety to the gameplay by adding new libraries. Your mind no longer associates a Medic to invulnerability, but also to free criticals. You don't just associate Heavies to crowd control, but also to slow-down. And don't even get me started on spies. It adds an element to the game, whereas changing the teams does nothing besides confuse players.

    That's stupid though because that's taking what I said out of context.

    Valve has developed a library in your mind. A RED attack payload map doesn't add an element to that library, but instead confuses the player.

    I've seen it. But the basis is that you're going to be different and change something well established, which you shouldn't do.

    Art doesn't get in the way of gameplay. They play the same, they have the same classes, the same weapons, everything is the same. The only difference is the color of the paint on the walls.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  15. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

    Messages:
    944
    Positive Ratings:
    564
    Right, lets stop all this argueing, mmkay. You want a red payload. sooo badly? Email Valve. If it doesn't work now, and nobody has any solutions stop fucking argueing about whether it's a good decision or not. If he wants to do it, let him it's only his map that'll get criticised for it. You wanna make it like that, email Valve and ask for their help in your implementing it. Hey, they gave the a/d ctf for the contest, they might just help you...
     
  16. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

    Messages:
    664
    Positive Ratings:
    667
    That's a terrible analogy.
    I can't remember the link, but there was a paper published on the psychology of red vs blue. Blue makes players want to be more creative and focus on getting a task done, whereas red makes you give far more attention to detail, something that is useful when defending.
    Secondly, Valve chose red and blue and it's a colour scheme that has stuck in people's mind. People playing a new map will think "Do I attack and go blue, or defend and go red?" If they pick blue and are somehow defending (assuming it is an A/D map) they will be confused.
    Of course it is just the map-maker's choice, but I hate maps that have Red attacking.
     
  17. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    248
    Positive Ratings:
    17
    The "psychology" thing you're thinking about is that warm tones of colour make people feel happier.

    But any rule, if it's used to much, becomes formulaic. Like, if ALL maps are in warm tones, then suddenly all the maps start to blend in with each other and become monotonous. And then things become dead and boring.

    That's why you have to reinvent things. To make them fresh.