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KotH Containers

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by PoignardAzur, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    Where should I start ?

    Okay, this is my very first "serious map". I've already worked on three "maps" : one with two spawns, a big wall and two towers (so awful I never finished it), a previous version of this one (with no building except the ones to close the whole map), so awful I never.. wait, I made a new version of this one ! And this is it !

    This is still very very bad, though. I have a HUGE list of things I will have to add before it gets playable (more ammo/medikits, lights...), the map is not really well optimised in itself (there are some spots where you can see 3/4 of the whole thing), the train is purely decorative, BUT it's still an almost-playable map and I'm exaggeratly proud of it.

    The main idea behind it is : there's a control point, you can't defend it staying close to it. The best way to keep the hill is (should be) to spawncamp (EDIT : to notfarfromspawn-camp) the enemy by invading their container labyrinths.

    As I said, the map is ugly, even more since I added the lights (I'll have to learn how to use them), but at least it's now totally playable.
    I posted it more in order to motivate myself to keep working on it (even though I'm gonna take a break) and to know what you think of it, generally speaking, before trying a SUPER-AWESOME version.

    Basically, my main problem is the scale. There is too much open space, and I don't know how to solve this problem without breaking my architecture. All help will be appreciated :)


    EDIT : okay, now this map is a bit less awful to play and a bit more depressive to look at. I guess it's called progress.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
  2. Spacek531

    Spacek531 L4: Comfortable Member

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    where are the ugly screenshots? I want to see them
     
  3. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    Sorry, I had saved them in .bmp, so...
    Fast answer, anyway !
     
  4. GPuzzle

    GPuzzle L9: Fashionable Member

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    Lights ARE necessary for the map be allowed to a gameday, mind you. So, no lights, no testing, no version past a1.
     
  5. Spacek531

    Spacek531 L4: Comfortable Member

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    also spawncamping is for scrubs, gameplay should not be centered around it. The containers should go, they're just propspam, that train tunnel is super long and is bad for gameplay because you can't dodge.

    Also, fullbright is terrible. Don't even think about trying to get people to download with fullbright. The "booooring" parts of mapping is everything. You NEED to have resupply zones and respawnrooms and respawnroomvisualizers before doing anything of the sort of giving it to someone.
     
  6. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    playing fullbright map with no resupply lockers is boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring
     
  7. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    Gpuzzle : I'm not sure I want this map to be gamedayed for now. I'm searching more general thoughts.

    Spacek :
    - the main idea is not "camp in front of one big door", but "try to control the enemy building instead of the space between buildings". I would prefer to try this before just forgetting the whole idea.
    - the containers are the main part of the map : they make a kind of labyrinth and give a sentation a chaos. I guess. I will try to add some brush layout and to add more diversity, but this is not my priority.
    - well, I could shorten the tunnel, but when I'll add the train, this would delete the tension of "will I get outta here before this train kills me ?" I think I will add some alcoves tall enough to allow you to dodge, but not to escape the train. I'll also need to think about something against camping in the center underground area. Maybe deleting the ammo.
    - actually, I didn't thought to this version of the map as a playable one (no gameday), so I didn't think the fullbright and the no resupply things were that problematic. But I guess I can fix them quickly.
     
  8. Fish 2.0

    Fish 2.0 L6: Sharp Member

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    I'm sorry but there is no way to justify why they would put down shipping containers like that.


    It doesn't even make sense. Even in TF2, stuff has to make sense.


    Also for the actual layout I'm going to say that it's going to be incredibly boring, walking through the labyrinth to be shot from above or walking on top to be shot by a sniper.
     
  9. GPuzzle

    GPuzzle L9: Fashionable Member

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    You know, we usually get the "general thoughts" by having a fully playable map (something your map isn't) and playing it on a gameday.
    Sorry if I'm being a jerk, but a gameday is how we get feedback, and, as we all know, feedback is a core part of development of anything, really.
     
  10. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

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    While playtesting is a huge part of the development process, I think it's understandable to want some broad strokes feedback on the first draft of a first-ish map before gamedaying it. It's a development stage where such advice can be given based solely on screenshots, and I think it's preferable for everyone involved that the flaws are pointed out by one person after spending a few seconds looking at pictures than by twelve people after 20 minutes of miserable gameplay.

    That being said, I find it difficult to give feedback on the map without an overview screenshot to show the whole layout. The corridor in pic 1 looks like something nobody would want to walk into and the area in pic 3 looks like explosives spam heaven. Stacked containers is a controversial subject on tf2maps, but I can imagine the ones in pic 4 might be fun if weird to play on. But yeah, you need to add a shot of the layout to show how the areas fit together.

    Also, I misread GP's post as this and it's too true not to share.
     
  11. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    Pro attitude
     
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  12. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    Gpuzzle : it's okay. I'm working on the lights now (arf, I hoped I would sleep tonight... was wrong).

    PVTFish : because the guy who put the containers was drunk ?

    EDIT : updated.

    Dr element : didn't get it.
     
  13. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    Okay, I added an overview. The control point is on the orange plateforme, the gray boxes at the bottom and the gap at the top lead to the underground part, and the two empty rooms on the edges are the spawns.

    That beeing said, you can play the map without screwing with your tf2 parameters now :p
     
  14. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

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    Thanks for the overview!

    The map is definitely deeply flawed, but less so than most first maps are, so please don't feel bad about all the negative stuff I'm about to say.

    The map currently consists of a small and boring mid area and two huge flat rooms full of containers directly overlooking the spawn exits. It looks to me like the mid area will be used once per match, during the initial rollout, when the teams will find themselves at opposite ends of what's basically a flat box and proceed to spam each other until only a Demo-Medic pair remain among the gibs. The Demoman will then move on to the container area and - having access to both the high ground and a convenient line of sight across every route from the enemy spawn - shut down the entire enemy team for long enough to get reinforcements. Pretty soon the spawnroom of the losing team is surrounded by three sentry nests and a gaggle of fully overhealed combat classes. A few players switch to DR Spy to break through, but either get lost trying to navigate the container maze on ground level or reach the control point only to be shredded by a Heavy-Medic combo halfway through capping.

    I don't think convention should be regarded as law, but looking at designs that work is nevertheless useful for aspiring mappers, so let's take a look at the design of Viaduct. Right outside the spawn is a courtyard area, which is difficult for the enemy team; There are no pickups or significant height advantages, and indeed nothing much to accommodate combat at all. The only height variety is the raised platform on which the spawnroom is placed, which puts attacking enemies at a slight disadvantage to players exiting spawn. The courtyard is mainly a buffer zone in which the exiting players can coordinate, build a little overheal/über and select which way to enter the main part of the map, a choice presented in the form of three doorways leading to three different paths.
    The players can either pick the longest route and reach the point with a big height advantage, pick the medium-long route and reach the point on even ground, or pick the short route and approach the point ad a height disadvantage. There is for some reason no flank route that bypasses the point area completely, which I think is pretty dumb and which makes it frustrating to play ambush classes, but whatever. The point is that players are funneled into the actual battle zone from completely different directions, which makes it impossible for the defenders to shut down the attacking team by holding a single area. It also means that the combat area consists of a number of different elements - battlements, bridges, path dividers, cover, etc. - which makes it more complex and dynamic to play in than a flat square box full of props would be. The varied layout also lets the area be big without feeling overscaled, and keeps the sightlines in check. The end result is a fluid map that allows for tactical movement, flanking and outmaneuvering, caters to the various playstyles and abilities of the different classes and keeps spawncamping to a minimum.

    It's 2 AM and I'm rambling and I have no idea how much of what I just said makes sense, but hopefully it was at least somewhat helpful. And again, don't feel bad about making bad design choices, everyone does. I'm working on my third (or fourth or ~eleventh, depending on how you count) map now, and I haven't made anything that's been even remotely enjoyable to play in.

    Also don't worry about the map not being pretty. Alphas aren't supposed to look good.
     
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  15. Fish 2.0

    Fish 2.0 L6: Sharp Member

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    First, that's not even a thing

    Second, he is saying your attitude towards your own map is self degrading. If you say your work is shit, then it likely will stay that way.

    Also yeah, if we sound like douche bags it's because we are trying to help - there is no way of saying a map is shit (to anyone) without sounding like a dick.
     
  16. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    I don't feel bad about all that. I didn't expect you to find it wonderful ^^ ; if I posted this map, it's because I wanted some advice.


    Got it. So, if I've understood it well, I'd have to make the control point more attackable, and the spawnroom less attackable, both by adding flanking routes and limiting lines of sight.

    I guess I could spare the warehouses in two parts, with a buffer zone and fight zone. But it would increase the size of the map again. And I might make the main warehouse harder to assault, with heigt differences and more flanking routes.

    I see your point. I was thinking about letting the containers more or less in the way they are, BUT also adding architecture elements to spare the zone. I think I'll also have to imagine ways to railroad attacking team in a single scheme (the sentry at this place, the heavy at that one) while giving players much more ways to counter this scheme. Food for thought.


    It helped me a lot :)

    PVT-Fish : unless it's self-deprecation humour.
    And where did you see me complaining about people criticizing my map ?
     
  17. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    We most likely didn't. But criticizing someone's first map feels like defusing a bomb in an urban area.

    We want to draw people towards this wonderful hobby that is map making, but we also want to be honest with people about their map flaws in order to keep a high standard.

    Therefore, people are being very careful and try to make sure you don't feel like your efforts are useless. We wan't you to know that you are at a point where we have all been in our mapping career, and that if you stick to it, you'll soon find yourself capable of creating some pretty darn amazing things.
     
  18. PoignardAzur

    PoignardAzur L2: Junior Member

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    I'm perfectly conscious of it, and I've already been confronted to the "Point out the default but don't vex too much". That's precisely why I posted a non-finished and non-equilibrated version of this map here : to have feedback about its flaws.

    Anyway, if you have something to say that haven't been said yet about the layout, I'll appreciate it !
    (btw, thank you again Deodorant)
     
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