Community input needed: Removal of HL2 assets from TF2

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by 404UNF, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. 404UNF

    404UNF No longer a "TF2 Beta/Cut Content Historian".

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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  2. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Yeah i was afraid of this that removing stuff causes issues. It did when CS Source went to Orangebox engine and some older payload was removed from the content files. I found atleast 15 textures alone that i reported to Valve and they restored those at that time.

    If this change is going through and they are going to remove 2 GB of files, i'm sure that if things are found that are broken, Valve can restore the files that the maps and mods use from the old depot and add in as new with old location.
     
  3. 404UNF

    404UNF No longer a "TF2 Beta/Cut Content Historian".

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    Wait, nonono, this change isn't going through. The link I posted is some community member's "Issue" (read: suggestion) to Valve to remove the files. Valve has not responded to the submitted "Issue" yet.

    Asherkin suggested a good solution that I'm all for. A steamcmd mod. Servers using it could add the required HL2 assets that the map/any plugins need to the connecting client's download table.

    I kind of don't want to just state a dislike on one place, but at the same time I don't want to post in 3 places (here, the Github, and AlliedModders)....so fuck it, I'll just say it here:

    I do dislike the idea of added downloads for clients, and I'm worried about the whole "disabling all downloads" multiplayer option in TF2 as that could also cause some issues. Aside from that, it's a good idea.

    I mean, I still don't see Valve ever removing the HL2 content from TF2 for the reason of all the things that'd break.
     
  4. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    There is too much and it's been in there for too long to remove it now. A significant portion of the uses will be from old defunct projects that are no longer updated, so they'd never be fixed. Most servers wouldn't bother to put in the effort to solve these issues, they'd just see a broken plugin/ map and move on.
     
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  5. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    You know that "someone" you refer to, is @henke37, who is a member here?
     
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    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  6. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    Some of the original six maps use HL2 content, so shipping with the HL2 files wasn't a mistake. As someone with a very Midwestern internet speed, I'd love to see the filesize of the game reduced in any way possible, but there's no easy way to cut this content without breaking something.

    If you want to play the "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs" card, you could remove dialogue sound files without breaking too many things. You could remove all the textures/models/sounds that aren't used in the current official map pool (or just pack those files into those maps and remove everything) but that goes against the philosophy that lead to any of that content ending up in any of the shipped content in the first place.

    I'd be curious to see how many MB/GB could be shaved off by removing the less usable bits of HL2 content, but I think pushing for their removal isn't a significant battle to fight when you consider how much else the TF team has on their plate (and how few people would actually benefit from this, considering modern disk sizes and internet speeds).
     
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  7. 404UNF

    404UNF No longer a "TF2 Beta/Cut Content Historian".

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    Here's where I disagree. They shouldn't remove any of the models, materials, sounds and particles. SourceMod plugins use them. Maps use them. Even voice clips, people use them. They're useful for many things. Many personal projects require them. Here's two sourcemod plugins that use the files:

    - https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=2370316
    - https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1626623


    Now, I still think that Asherkin's comment is a valid option, having a steamcmd "mod" of sorts to allow the content to still be used. Either that, or have some sort of system that loads the files from the actual HL2 directory instead of the "shared" one inside of TF2's directory.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
  8. Hotel Detective

    Hotel Detective L4: Comfortable Member

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    Before I say this, please note I'm not actually siding with either side, I don't care either way:

    I don't see why they should cater to SourceMod when it inconveniences a bigger portion of players.
    It would be up to plugin authors to figure out how to make their mod work, it shouldn't mean VALVe has to keep their game unnecessarily cluttered to allow them an easier time. The majority of players wouldn't even notice. Especially 2 gb of sounds holy shit that's actually a lot if those are unused by default TF2.
     
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  9. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    Maybe I didn't write my post very clearly, but this is basically the same conclusion I reached.
    The problem is more one of deprecation. A lot of those old SourceMod plugins, maps, etc. that use this content are no longer maintained and would be pretty much permanently broken. The people who rely on them to work wouldn't necessarily have the skills to repair them.

    (Also worth noting that the "it's more convenient for the players and not the modders" philosophy would've ended up with the Swamp Pack not in the game. It's a different scenario for sure (especially in the current day where packing a map with custom content is more or less the norm), but I would still caution against that line of thinking, since modding is about making content production as accessible as possible.)
     
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  10. Empyre

    Empyre L6: Sharp Member

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    Perhaps they could detect if you also have HL2 and not duplicate those files if you do.
     
  11. hutty

    aa hutty

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    Honestly I would like to see (the ones not used within the current map pool) removed. TF2 has a huge bloat problem, download size is a major barrier to entry when considering which game to start up with friends who don't already have it.

    I would actually suggest going further and pulling some of the less popular maps from the install. CS:GO's model is pretty good, where you have a core map set that is improved over time. New maps are introduced in events and they bop out inferior ones from the install.
     
  12. Infomaniac

    Infomaniac L6: Sharp Member

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    How many sourcemod plugins, exactly?
     
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  13. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    Pretty sure they could remove arena_watchtower and literally nobody would notice
     
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  14. ics

    aa ics http://ics-base.net

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    Hey little respect to the guy who made watchtower. Even if its not your favorite map, he spend a lot of time and effort to do it.
     
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  15. henke37

    aa henke37

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    Ideally they'd remove a lot of mostly forgotten content and offer several levels of installing the game. On demand installs for non core content and full installs for those who want it all. Several MMORPGs do it this way.

    But that is for content that is actually used in the unmodded game. Certainly worth exploring, but not the real issue here.
     
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  16. 404UNF

    404UNF No longer a "TF2 Beta/Cut Content Historian".

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    Not that it matters (it doesn't), but I don't have an exact number. I know of a few off the top of my head. Here's a quick and dirty little list I threw together of some things I can name off the top of my head.

    • Rollermine Spawner - Uses Rollermine model, rollermine sounds
    • Roll The Dice - Looking at the code, I see some HL2 button sounds are used
    • Dr. Hax - Old plugin, uses computer monitor model from HL2, voice clip of guy saying "HACKS!". Looks unmaintained, but I've got a working new syntax version I just haven't released yet.
    • Various "pet" plugins for TF2 - I've got several different copies of source code for several versions of a "pet" plugin including Golden Machinegun's Pet plugin, a newer pet plugin from AlliedMods, and one I've made. They all use HL2 models for the pets, and HL2 sounds for the respective sounds for certain pet "actions" like jumping/taunting.
    • MasterOfTheXP's TF2 Sandbox plugin, and my version of a TF2 sandbox (aka prop building) plugin. These both use every HL2 model.
    • SourceMod itself - Menu sounds are HL2 sounds, though they can be changed in the configs.
    • "gibshooter" entity - Appears in all Source engine games. Shoots out HL2 gibs like a skull. This would probably be permanently broken in TF2 if HL2 content was removed. This does work in TF2 (I tested it fairly recently).

    Again, it doesn't matter how many plugins use the files. The point is the files are used. Valve isn't going to remove them because of this Git issue which is why I deleted my prior comments over there. It's pointless even discussing this as I've now realized because it's been what, 10 years or more that TF2 has been around now? This is Valve we're talking about, they won't be touching anything to do with the shared directory. That's why it's been dubbed "shared", because it's shared by HL2 and TF2. Some stock TF2 maps even use HL2 assets so this silly suggestion of removing the files would break those too.

    The key word is "ideally". You aren't the first to suggest this, and if the files remain in, you probably won't be the last. TF2 is like, 10 years old. It's too late at this point.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
  17. henke37

    aa henke37

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    It is hardly too late. They actually took the effort to compress the voice lines in the game less than three years ago. Someone cared.
     
  18. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    Fwiw, I used a couple of the HL2 antenna pieces in snowycoast, and I don't think anyone noticed. A little satellite dish model, too. And I think a lot of the ambient sounds do get reused quite frequently in TF2 soundscapes, even in official maps.

    Since custom content just gets packed into maps these days, I'd be in favour of just treating any HL2 content as that. While it might be a PITA for sourcemod writers to update and/or start including custom files, the vast majority of people who play TF2 simply do not need to download things like hound eyes and combine soldiers. Maybe skip removing the ambient sound effects since those truly are generic and would need to be replaced with equivalents anyway.
     
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  19. Vel0city

    aa Vel0city func_fish

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    If we're doing it for the sake of saving space, maybe we should start looking into repacking more stock maps and maybe make VPKs compress their content like a zip file.
     
  20. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    every map repacked is an update that needs to be rolled out, I'm assuming valve is trying not to update things for no reason. Any time they've had an excuse to update a map tho, it was repacked. So If you want maps repacked, your best bet might be to find and report issues, forcing them to update. Forcing everyone to redownload all maps in one go is likely not going to happen.