Clarification about "comp players still playing" and why I am so bitter about TF2

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Trotim, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Posted this in the most recent promo news thread but any discussion there is apparently forbidden by Wilson, so here:

    A lot of competitive players quit too, and the ones that haven't don't play on pubs anymore at all. They can only tolerate "the game" because they are not playing the game as it is at all but using plugins and rulesets to ban the vast majority of weapons and I know that at least ETF2L also only allows teams to wear cosmetics when both teams explicitly allow and want it.

    It should be pretty obvious that's no solution. On top of that the hundreds of bugs and the performance issues still affect them even though they do their best to ban all the crap. The client is still bloated and falling apart at the seams due to all the unnecessary clutter. Even if all cosmetics are banned it still has to preload everything and their hackjob "solution" to the precache being too small was to just increase the variable size which caused a plethora of problems as that was obviously never intended. The engine is 4-5 years old after all. It should run on every modern PC without any problems but we all know that's far from true.

    But hey, low FPS are not the problem. Constant (server) crashes or entire maps not working anymore like cp_steel a while ago or cp_gravelpit now (along with a lot of other a/d maps, I just know Gravelpit had to be removed from the comp map list as it kept breaking) is simply not acceptable.

    A lot of competitive players that still stick around are sick of the "real" game, and since there have been nothing but bugs, crashes and clutter "added" to their 6v6/Highlander sub-game in years they're getting bored quick too. Yes new unlocks would have had the potential to really make TF2 a great competitive game. No the vast majority of unlocks they did end up adding were definitely not helping. It's come so far now even the "casual" pubbers are disapproving of the shitty weapons the TF2 Team (all 0.5 of them) spends no time designing properly. Not to mention the huge power and complexity creep.

    But that could have been okay. Last year they started the TF2 Beta that many hoped would finally start some sort of revolution and start fixing old bugs and issues. ETF2L had a big Beta Subforum where the players posted big productive essays and debated about the weapons that could use tweaks, what their role is/should be and how to fix them.

    So they never actually fixed anything. And never actually used the beta for anything constructive. None of the newest weapons were put in the beta first, not even their attributes (and obvious exploits and bugs were instantly found in the "real" game). What they did test were the two Misc slots. The two Misc slots that would make the performance problems even worse but required a big reworking of the equipment system.

    Because they do work on features as long as they bring money. They just don't work on anything else. So the ETF2L beta subforum was removed again after months of no progress or developer response, and it became blindingly obvious to the players that the TF2 Team in fact is not going to fix anything relevant. It's just going to get worse and worse.

    Many players only stick around because of all the time they invested, and the community, so they play a handful of matches a month. There's no point investing more time than that in a game that is only getting worse and worse by the week. The lack of similar games like TF2 does keep a few people around but make no mistake - as soon as another decent class-based multiplayer FPS comes around they'll switch in an instant.

    TF2 is a special case, a tragic case. A classic minimalist game that its developers needlessly and excessively experimented with and exploited for years, constantly updating even if all they did was detract from the game. The original game, the class-based simplistic multiplayer classic, is totally gone. And it was so good people rightfully want it back. It's just never going to happen.

    What it is now is a money machine, specifically designed to make players addicted through the use of Skinner Box mechanics. They do keep programming in new features like the ingame store, Steam Trading, "strange" weapons, new unusual effects, two Misc slots. Those obviously keep players addicted and generate more money. That's the focus, and only focus, now. New weapons are upgrades? Yeah, that's the point. More people will buy those (once enough have been sold you can just slap a random nerf on it, like say -max health, and since your gameplay updates are deliberately kept lethargic the fanboys will give you the benefit of the doubt and say "they've always been working on it" or "they didn't realize it would be this strong").

    If it were just a case of a bunch of developers not knowing better I might have tolerated it. They're doing it on purpose though, for money. They knowingly make people addicted, make people gamble, for money. While turning one of the greatest and truly unique multiplayer games of the last few years to utter shit. On purpose. I'm sorry but I just can't "tolerate" or "just ignore" that.

    Oh by the way? There is zero indication Dota 2 will be any better. If anything they will pull the same shit again as it worked so well. It did, they made a lot of money without putting in any effort. Unfortunately for them many people aren't oblivious to what happened to TF2 plus Dota 2 has very strong competition with already established communities. Yes I sincerely hope Dota 2 will bomb.
     
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  2. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I don't have a reply. I just want to go in and link this http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=10227
    Before any shitstorm happens. This thread is fine, I can just see it potentially going to hell with personal insults and arguments. Keep it civil.

    Thanks.
     
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  3. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

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    I don't have a huge problem with all the updates, but it is a shame that TF2 has become such a money whore. I no longer tell me friends that it's an excellent game worth playing, because frankly it's kinda embarrassing with all the emphasis on hats and stuff :/
     
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  4. Mr. Wimples

    Mr. Wimples L6: Sharp Member

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    It's sad to say I feel the same way. I may mention I play TF2 to people, but I almost never suggest it anymore. Not because It's a terrible game or anything, but instead because of what a bloated, complicated mashup of a game it has become.
     
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  5. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    i kinda miss the simplicity. its like if tf2 was chess, it's now a kind of chess where every piece has 3 more kinds of moves - kings now can move like knights, pawns can move 1 step left, queens can jump over pieces like knights, bishops can now move exactly 3 squares up and down, etc etc etc. still playable, but you can be "blindsided" at any moment by anything and you don't know what to expect.
     
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  6. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    I know my post is really ranty, I just wrote it as I went along. I just didn't want to have written a page of words and then just delete it.

    One more thing though: I would have been fine with a handful hats. I would also have been fine with a handful of unlocks. But what some people seem to forget is that TF2 did not need to get as many updates as it did at all. There was no need for an ingame store for Valve to keep making money off of TF2, there was no need to "keep it updated". I am not fine with the random item drops. I am not fine with the real-money store, promotional items, weapon reskins, gambling minigame...

    In retrospect they should have focused on sporadic well-designed updates like they did at first with Goldrush. Fix all the bugs, add meaningful content like maps, a set of sidegrades per class you can get via achievements, another game mode like once every half a year and done. Even that would still have ensured 4.5 years of ongoing support with none of the clutter. Clearly Valve has the money to spend a few weeks doing this and when you have more time to do updates there is no rush leading to fewer bugs you have more time to fix.

    This would have been great for their reputation and if they for some reason didn't have the time or money to update, they just could not have. They could even have done something like a "donation drive" to fund the next TF2 update. I know I would've donated back then. And if that doesn't bring in enough money to allow working on an update so be it.

    Frankly in the end I don't think the company and money needed to be the focus at all. They have enough money and they could have spent more time working on, you know, another good game rather than adding more random stuff to an old one. Their reputation would not have suffered, hell if they had focused on the competitive aspect TF2 would have been one of the very first popular competitive games at the now huge esports events like MLG.

    The game would have been just fine without the excessive updating. Excessive updating however did happen which the minimalistic FPS didn't deserve, nor survive. It had a high longevity because it was a great game and it was in fact the constant updates that greatly lowered its longevity. Now, because they released more and more bad updates, they're forced to release more and more updates to keep players interested.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  7. AdRiAnO66

    AdRiAnO66 L1: Registered

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    yup, that's sad that after 3 years game doesn't feel like it was at the beginning

    people are leaving cause of no real game support and decreasing game performance, it's all about hats and cosmetic / promo items nowadays
     
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  8. Kiddnils

    Kiddnils L3: Member

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    Team Fortress 2 is a part of our live. If we leave now we would miss TF2 really hard. Anyways I think without the shitload of new content half of us would have gone a long time ago. My FPS is under 30 all the time and I keep playing because I am a big fanboy.

    TF2 was awsome and is still awsome ( somehow). This is TF2maps and we should be happy Valve created such a great game. We have fun creating maps with hammer, giving feedback and test maps. I dont care that I spend more time testing my maps instead of playing. I hope my opinion will be accepted.
     
  9. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    a good game doesnt need a ton of new content being constantly injected into it. look at counterstrike - the gun additions stopped in 1.6 and people still play it. look at starcraft - one addon, a few tweaks in the beginning and thats it. look at quake - people actually remove things by using flattextures and still play it. look at chess - same rules and pieces for hundreds of years, still a great game.
     
  10. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    It's a shame this has happened. I can still enjoy TF2, but less and less, and i can well see myself simply giving up on it.
     
  11. theharribokid

    aa theharribokid

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    I'm sick of people trying to ram their opinion on TF2 down other people throats. We get it. You think TF2 has gone downhill. I'm sick of this discussion in every update thread, Can we keep it all in this thread for now so it's easily ignorable?
     
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  12. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    GRAVELPIT ISN'T PLAYED IN 6v6 ANYMORE? WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN!

    In other words, it didn't happen. For example: http://esea.net/index.php?s=stats&d=match&id=2479562

    In addition: A season ago, metalworks was all set to be voted into ESEA to be part of their league, but a map has to be voted out first. The map that was voted out was gravelpit. HOWEVER, the reason it was voted out was because there were 3 really bad 5cp maps that everyone split their votes on, while a smaller group of gravelpit haters converged on it. ESEA policy allows a map that is voted out to get voted back in again, so it was metalworks vs gravelpit. I think its fairly obvious that metalworks lost by a HUGE margin. Moral of the story: GRAVELPIT AIN'T NEVER LEAVING DON'T WASTE UR TIME!

    Also of note: Euros don't play with unlocks, but they do it for stupid reasons, because the old guard doesn't want to learn how to play with new weapons, etc. NA TF2 however, does play with unlocks, banning only the ones that break competitive play. Obviously, what breaks comp play is debatable, but the general policy is that if something isn't broken, but isn't really powerful either, it gets to stay.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  13. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I have left, and I actually miss it less than when I was trying to keep playing it. Putting the downfall of degradation of the game in front of me makes me miss "the good ol' days" more than not playing it.
     
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  14. Mr.Blob

    Mr.Blob L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    I have also quit the game after playing it (sniping) everyday for 3 years, at first it felt weird but real life > games.
     
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  15. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

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    TF2's great.
     
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  16. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I think the first batches were okay. Medic, pyro were really good. Heavy had me slightly annoyed at natasha but I could tolerate it. The first update that really made me disappointed was the demoman one. And somewhere around there I think I started to think that "this is enough".

    Hats were okay I guess, initially they were fitting and not very obtrusive. Apart from the pyro propeller hat everyone got something reasonable (I guess). But as they started doing updates with nothing but hats, adding paint, and then neon bright paint, and usual effects. It really got annoying.
    People might remember that I actively disabled all the cosmetics in the game around jan-feb earlier this year. Until that got impossible in the "hatless update" (the irony, it stings).

    But on the other hand I get excited when new weapons are added, I can't deny it (I have even modeled a few weapons myself). I hope it will be medic update quality. But I usually get something that either:
    • is a re-skin
    • is a pure upgrade
    • is garbage
    • is a hat
    • is a misc
    • looks terrible
    • all of the above somehow
    There are of course some stuff that is reasonable, but in these cases I usually think that it wasn't a very needed addition. Also I will use any weapon added to the game, I'm not so grumpy that I boycott things.
    But when I take a step back, I can't honestly say that the game has necessarily improved with the itemsystem. If all items were removed today, I wouldn't care for one second. And keep playing like usual.

    As trotim mentions, the power creep is getting extreme. Things just get deadlier and deadlier, easier to use and harder to avoid.
    I hate this the most of all. Could rant about it for weeks.

    But
    I still have fun playing.
    I think TF2 is a very fun game, the basic gameplay elements are flawless (gamemode, rocketjumps, ammo & health stuff, medigun, and so on). The source engine is still one of the most responsive and "accurate/exact". The characters are great, the voice actors do a amazing job, the maps look great, the lighting shaders are good.
    The community is usually nice, overall the atmosphere is better than many other games I don't care to mention.
    So in the end: I really don't need, and I most likely don't want more items. But I will keep playing until something gets in the way of my fun.

    "Fun" is also extremely individual, so all of the last paragraph is entierly my personal opinion.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  17. Sel

    Sel Banned

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    Other people having an opinion you don't like to see or hear is a very different thing than ramming it down your throat.

    No where is anyone here telling you that you must think like them, what's happening is people sharing their opinions and then backing them up and explaining why they feel that way.
     
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  18. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    This isn't about voting in maps. Gravelpit along with a few other A/D maps is literally broken. It is bugged. From the ETF2L Highlander rules: "If the overtime bug happens on Gravelpit (i.e. the round ends after capping in overtime) the full round will have to be replayed. However, teams can agree to replace Gravel Pit with another map, if they don’t want to risk the bug happening."
    This led to many teams not "risking" playing on it. There is still no response from Valve about it afaik. The problem here is that things like this should not happen and it is an example of old things being broken that were perfectly fine before.

    Yeah there are some comp leagues that don't ban as many unlocks as the European leagues. Those are usually also the comp leagues where everyone wears unusuals and brags about them.

    The "learn to adapt" argument doesn't really elicit a unique or emotional response from me anymore because literally every second anti-comp post on SPUF was exactly that and it's an idiotic argument. There are a handful of unlocks that do add to the game, yes. But if you use a whitelisting approach and only allow unlocks that aren't shit you end up with like 10 allowed unlocks tops. Of how many now, 100? Yeah the players could obviously deal with them. It's usually just not fun or adds strategies or anything at all so nobody wants to. Then they also have visual glitches etc. As I said, they stick around because they liked the original core game. That's what they want to play.

    The NA unlock numbers are also inflated because downgrades are allowed. The only reason to use those is to troll your own team or confuse players for a minute while doing worse than usual. They should be banned for consistency and simplicity, see complexity creep.

    Also allowed are a bunch of upgrades. That adds 1 unlock to the list but actually, since it makes players not use the other unlocks anymore, it's really only a replacement/buff at best or makes players not use up to like 4 other unlocks of that slot at worst. Not ideal, see power creep. I don't know what league you're talking about exactly but when I saw Tomislav/Steak/GRU Heavies running around in some Highlander matches it was extremely obvious that's going way too far.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  19. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    I am exactly, exactly in agreement with ravidge.

    Also with harribo, vis-a-vis this thread. Better one big, controlled, civilised debate than every single update thread degenerating into snarking and bickering.
     
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  20. Jeremy

    Jeremy L11: Posh Member

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    Basically everyting Ravidge said.

    Also, I find that the worse the item/weapon is, the less I actually see it on the average server. Lots of people use the Direct Hit, the Buff Banner and/or the Equalizer, but I only ever see one or two people using a weapon from Dr. Grordbort's Victory Pack. Although "worse" is my own personal opinion, not an established fact.