City Map: yay/Nay?

[Fruity Snacks]

I'd just like to point out that you did not clearly state that you will be making changes for TF2, you said that you "know i'll need to make minor changes, but the layout should transfer well."


Just pointing out. Carry on, be nice. OR ELSE >

 

[NovaCor]

In all fairness, in my profession, which is the design industry, you give feedback on what you see as what you see is always the latest iteration of any given product. No junior designer (game design or otherwise) who takes himself seriously will withold information for ego-related reasons so this is not an uncommon or unreasonable assumption.

I have 7 years experience as an ammatuer level designer for Source as a result of my hobby and several months experience experimenting in other game engines. I studied game design for my dissertation and got a 69 (1 mark short of a 1st), graduated in graphic design and am now working in the entertainment industry doing promotional work for local theatre venues, Channel 4 and the BBC.

I'm not trying to wave my dick around, but that seems to be where you place value. I work in the creative industry. "looks good" is as useless feedback as "looks shit", you are getting a lot of specific, valueble feedback but you refuse to acknowledge any of it because you're offended that you're not being idolised. Some of the guys here have worked with Valve and had their content, be it textures/models/maps, purchased and intergrated into the game. Just Sayin'... you might wanna take on board what these people have to say. If not, it's your loss. I just think the collective experience by the guys here is more relavent than your "constuction inspector" job.

I can agree with all of this but you still have a condescending tone to it, especially at the end. Im not offended im not being idolized, I am offended at the general tone you took in your 1st post. As I said several times now, I reacted poorly. You would have no way of knowing if this was the first time I ever opened Hammer or not.

I refused to acknowlege the specific feedback because it was based on assumptions and not actual facts and numbers. I should have provided those numbers, yes...they werent there when I posted, and as I have stated several times already, I should have posted those numbers and screens before reacting the way I did. Harping on my own mistakes doesnt make yours go away though. I for one have admitted I made an error, just as anyone who filled in the blanks did as well.

If I were actually in your industry at your level of experience, then sure I would have posted more info...but you assumed I wasnt (and I am not) so why did you also assume I would be on par with the pros on my presentaion? Those assumptions places side by side contradict each other.

Again, we are waaaay off topic. I admitted my fault, if no one else thinks they made a poor judgement call, thats fine. I sincerily apologize for my reaction. In the future, I will post more info....but its still up to the readers to take it all in. If they dont, then Im not going to accept the advice.

 

[NovaCor]

Id like to address some of the recent feedback and thank the posters, but I have to rush off to work. Contractors are always forgetting they need inspections, and I really hate being hustled off in the middle of the afternoon for some dip**** who couldnt remember to schedule.

Ill be brief: thanks for the more accurate feedback, especially the grayed out sniper area...ive got a few things to reply with but for now Ill just say it was a good call even though I lack the detail to make it 100% accurate at present time. I really posted the map too soon and should have stuck with the OP link to the FC2 map for now....Ill get some more done this evening and perhaps have some better screens to show in the near future.

 

[Ravidge]

So here is my feedback, and why I think this layout isn't going to be great for TF2 gameplay. Pictures are informative:

Also, to guard myself from being ignored due to "childishness", let me just say that I'm 100% completely serious with this image. I could have easily made a joke out of it, but I did not.

Edit: my point is the easiest shot to make as a sniper is on a target on flat ground, with both sniper and target on the same elevation, with no obstacles. Distance is not a factor unless taken to extremes, personally I find ~768 units and beyond to be optimal sniping range, but nothing is stopping me from taking shots (successfully) at closer range too, it's just not preferred as it's more dangerous.

What you have is a map where all player will be on the same elevation, on completely flat ground with no obstacles. As it stands, every bit of road you have there is a viable sniping position, depending on where the target is.
Not to mention, this isn't just a sniper issue. Flat ground is notoriously boring to fight on as any class. There is absolutely nothing you can do in a fight to gain a positioning advantage, which devolves the fight into a pure aim battle rather than a tactical + aim battle.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Heh. Ever since Nova mentioned short distances not being great for snipers I've had "...clearly you haven't played with a ravidge!" in mind. Fitting for you to weigh in.

 

[LeSwordfish]

Ah, it's the Tri-annual "here is why everyone is wrong, and i, as an expert in a different thing, am right" thread. Was wondering when the "Spring 2012" one would crop up.

 

[Sel]

expert in a different thing, am right

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/357729-Agent00Kevin-s-Maps-Updated!-Map-Packs-added

http://www.moddb.com/mods/novacor

I'm sorry, what? Expert? The word you're looking for is amateur.

Though admittedly it's not difficult to see where he's getting this adversity to actual criticism. Just look at the moddb page, and his ubi thread and try to find anyone who actually has some negative feedback lol.

 

[MangyCarface]

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/357729-Agent00Kevin-s-Maps-Updated!-Map-Packs-added

http://www.moddb.com/mods/novacor

I'm sorry, what? Expert? The word you're looking for is amateur.

Though admittedly it's not difficult to see where he's getting this adversity to actual criticism. Just look at the moddb page, and his ubi thread and try to find anyone who actually has some negative feedback lol.

This is called 'getting too personal' slide the keyboard away from yourself for a bit

 

[Deodorant]

The way I see it, Nova started by posting a flawed map (which is the norm for TF2maps debuts, I think) with slightly too much confidence in it. When the veteran mappers came with their usual unsentimental criticism, Nova took it personally (which is wrong, but I can recognize it) and got defensive. Then there were five pages of hurt feelings and misunderstandings, that slowly, gradually got more or less solved. And all the time Selentic stood in the middle of it all, hurling insults for no good reason.

So.. The first version of the map is fatally flawed. If Nova takes the criticism and implements some radical changes, it may eventually grow into a perfectly playable map, or at least be good practice. Nova has admitted his/her errors in giving too little information and being too defensive. Can we stop the drama and get on with our lives now?

 

[Goombac]

I think everything would be a lot more helpful once the map is in at least a partially finished stage, like the entire map is blocked out, we see the inside layouts, and how the streets will be changed to cut down on sightlines, with props, trucks, what have you. At least then we can have some context as to what goes where, instead of having to fill in the rest.

Because at the current stage from the posted pictures I have no idea what is what. I'm assuming that the building is where the intel will be, but then all I see are streets leading off to nowhere and I'm not sure where spawn will be, the enemy, side paths and all that. Once we can see it in its entirety, you will get more help.

 

[Pocket]

And all the time Selentic stood in the middle of it all, hurling insults for no good reason.

I was going to tell Nova to ignore Selentic in particular, but by the time I got here it was too late.

 

[Trotim]

To be fair

Ok go on a crusade about how great your work actually is then and continue to make garbage content out of everything you touch, while ignoring any suggestions/criticism. It's up to you whether you want to improve or keep writing giant essays on why your work is the best thing ever.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/357729-Agent00Kevin-s-Maps-Updated!-Map-Packs-added

http://www.moddb.com/mods/novacor

I'm sorry, what? Expert? The word you're looking for is amateur.

Though admittedly it's not difficult to see where he's getting this adversity to actual criticism. Just look at the moddb page, and his ubi thread and try to find anyone who actually has some negative feedback lol.

aren't actually wrong (he did write essays defending his map instead of accepting people might be on to something, and he evidently did not really have to deal with/learn to deal with negative feedback), so why ignore? Ignoring (and getting all defensive in response to) negative feedback is exactly what he should learn from this NOT to do.

You'll have to deal with harsh, yes sometimes slightly misinformed feedback, and since he didn't actually listen to what Selentic said the first time the tone getting harsher to try and get through to him makes sense. He was just calling him out on it, and it's not like he was wrong to do so.

"Kind" feedback never helps in situations like these as it's just ignored, or worse never even dares to say a map won't work out. "Amazing map 10/10 wanna play it soon" was a lot of the feedback I read on those ubisoft forums and frankly I'd rather have constructive drama than completely worthless praise

 

[Prestige]

DAMN this looks friggin sweet, keep it up!

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

I had a poop once.

 

[tyler]

 

[NovaCor]

I think everything would be a lot more helpful once the map is in at least a partially finished stage, like the entire map is blocked out, we see the inside layouts, and how the streets will be changed to cut down on sightlines, with props, trucks, what have you. At least then we can have some context as to what goes where, instead of having to fill in the rest.

Because at the current stage from the posted pictures I have no idea what is what. I'm assuming that the building is where the intel will be, but then all I see are streets leading off to nowhere and I'm not sure where spawn will be, the enemy, side paths and all that. Once we can see it in its entirety, you will get more help.

^ This.

And to think, none of the site staff or sponsers posted this, they just went on and on about layout and cover and lack of detail...when its obvious the map has had about 4 hours spent on it.

I have completely ignored every post since the original disagreement was solved. I did have a chuckle at this one though:

So here is my feedback, and why I think this layout isn't going to be great for TF2 gameplay. Pictures are informative:

Also, to guard myself from being ignored due to "childishness", let me just say that I'm 100% completely serious with this image. I could have easily made a joke out of it, but I did not.

Edit: my point is the easiest shot to make as a sniper is on a target on flat ground, with both sniper and target on the same elevation, with no obstacles. Distance is not a factor unless taken to extremes, personally I find ~768 units and beyond to be optimal sniping range, but nothing is stopping me from taking shots (successfully) at closer range too, it's just not preferred as it's more dangerous.

What you have is a map where all player will be on the same elevation, on completely flat ground with no obstacles. As it stands, every bit of road you have there is a viable sniping position, depending on where the target is.
Not to mention, this isn't just a sniper issue. Flat ground is notoriously boring to fight on as any class. There is absolutely nothing you can do in a fight to gain a positioning advantage, which devolves the fight into a pure aim battle rather than a tactical + aim battle.

Pure comedy at its finest. No way in the world you can take that screen, which I already publicly admitted I posted waaaaay too early, and come up with that sort of feedback and actually be serious.

So let me quote myself, at the very beginning of this whole clusterfcuk of opinions. (some are what I was looking for; general opinions/tips, while others are like the above post)

I was looking for thought on Urban maps overall and opinions on the basic layout. I will have some screens of the map in Hammer soon; as of now I just have about 1/2 of one side done but not detailed.

This here is what I was asking for. Not "A sniper can stand in XXX positions and snipe everywhere because theres no detail and nothing in the map" Yeah, that would be GREAT advice if the map were done or near done. But thats NOT what I was asking for, since the map has all of 3-4 hours spent on it. basic layout and finished layouts are two very, very different things. Experienced mappers would know this.

All i wanted were general opinions of urban maps and basic layout. Many, if not most of you, went far too in depth for a map that is so very obviously NOT anywhere near done. Which is why I am not accepting the criticism - because it it completely and utterly useless at this point in development. Useless

General tips and pointers however, are very useful in the beginning stages of development. There may be thing I overlooked such as a couple things A Boojum Snark pointed out. Very helpful, without feeling the inherent need to start pointing out things that arent even issues at this stage in development. After all the discussion about 'filling in the blanks', we still have a site staff member filling in the blanks himself. Great.

For a bunch of guys who purport to be 'experienced', you sure are jumping the gun here.

What should be humbling is that a normal user here finally saw what I was getting at - there just isnt enough there to make the kinds of assumptions many of you are making. There just isnt enough.

Now Im fairly certain Im going to be accused of writing essays on The Crusades or whatever, and that i cant take crticisim because the map is obviously garbage and I never ever see criticism anywhere else even though the rest of my work outside of TF2 is also garbage and everyone, hundreds of people, are just being nice. (because people just like to be nice on the internet.) And thats fine. I really dont care to argue with people who feel the need to make up imaginary scenarios in their haeds. I'll never win that battle, because its in your heads. You'll just conjure up some new way for me to be a bad guy. But guess what? Im not going away, so feel free to waste your time banging at the keyboard.

 

[NovaCor]

yyler

Prestige

Trotim

Selentic

Yeah. I got pix too.

 

[Rexy]

 

[tyler]

jesus christ

you have really made a horse's boob of yourself

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'm sorry. You just told me you would have better conduct in the future.

You have clearly gone against that.