PL Bear Lake

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Zhan, Jun 14, 2011.

  1. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    A new symmetrical, "tug-of-war" payload map inspired by Icarus's pl_waste.

    Special thanks to Icarus for advice and for use of his tug-of-war payload entities prefab.

    The gametype consists of a single, neutral cart that starts in the middle, which both teams attempt to push to the opponents' base. In that way, it's analogous to linear 5-CP push maps, but with a payload cart.

    I'm too tired to write anything more at the moment, but look forward to seeing this map in gamedays in the near future.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2011
  2. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    This better have bear cutoffs around the map when it goes beta.
     
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  3. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    the 2nd pic looks like 2 eyes and a tongue flailing about. your pics are really small so it's hard to tell wtf is going on, but yay someone did something with tug-of-war.

    I fear it may be too small.
     
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  4. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Where are the bears and where's the lake?
     
  5. DaBeatzProject

    aa DaBeatzProject

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    "where's the corn"..... grazr: where's the water in badwater? where's the bad in badlands? :p
     
  6. Fredrik

    Fredrik L6: Sharp Member

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    Go beerlake!
     
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  7. Tom Hoen

    Tom Hoen L6: Sharp Member

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    Needs bear cavalry!
     
  8. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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  9. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    By that logic badlands should be a lake, but never mind.

    I'm going to raise an eyebrow at the narrowness of the path in screenshot 3, but really this post was only for the above bad nonsensical joke.
     
  10. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    I fear it looks too long... The longer it is the more times it takes to push the cart, but also the long amount of time the opposing team has to push back. Its defiently a fun gametype, but if its too long, people will probably get bored or angry and leave because you can't see any real progress being made.
     
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  11. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    By what logic? Badwater is a place with no water; so the map has no water. Badland's is also an arid place, why would it be a lake?

    There's no skewed logic, these are places.
     
  12. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    Okay guys, quiet down, if I don't change the name and this thing goes into beta there will be a lake and a there will be bear cutouts.

    For those saying it's too small or too long: if anything it might be too narrow (too few alternate flanking routes). I informally measured the length of the track using the extremely scientific metric of running around as a demoman, and as far as I can tell, my track is 1 or 2 demoman-seconds shorter than pl_waste's. If the map is too difficult to win and stalemates to often, then that would be a consequence of bad level design and not the length of the track.
     
  13. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    Sorry about the broken spawn during test today! One of the func_respawnrooms was set to the wrong team.

    == a01a: 6/14/2011 ==
    * Fixed a broken BLU forward spawn.
     
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  14. Doctor Paprika

    Doctor Paprika L4: Comfortable Member

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    No one else who played the fixed version on Cafe of Broken Dreams last night has posted, so I'll just say what everybody in the server seemed to agree on: the whole push-pull game type just really isn't that fun.

    Before you go any further with the map, I'd suggest really thinking about some of the problems with this game type and whether they're solvable or not, or even worth solving. Just some of my personal gripes:

    1. Payload maps are always "narrow" in the sense that action is concentrated on a set path with one team always clustered around the cart. However, in a regular payload map, only Blu really needs to stick to that path, while Red can set up defenses or flank. In a payload race, the two teams have to balance between blocking the other's cart or pushing their own, but the two paths are usually far enough apart to provide some buffer space. In this push-pull arrangement, both teams need to be in the same little spot the whole time.

    2. TF2's general sense of momentum is absent from this game type. In a 5 CP map - which this resembles - the time it takes for a point to cap or un-cap changes to encourage the attacking team to push forward. The slowest, most difficult part is the midpoint, and it goes faster from there.

    In a payload map, the cart stops if no one is pushing it, then gradually begins to go back, so that Blu isn't punished for just getting pushed off the cart for a second or two and are able to maintain their push if they regroup fast enough.

    As a hybrid of these game types, this push-pull seems to work on paper, as a 5 CP game is sort of like Blu and Red pushing one cart up from a valley where the incline gets shallower further from midpoint, so you can push it faster as you approach enemy base. However, what ends up happening is that Blu can push the cart halfway across the map, get their push knocked back by a single Medic-Pyro combo, and lose all their progress because Red can immediately begin pushing it the other direction. There is no equivalent to a normal cart's standstill time or the slow un-capping of points. Attackers' momentum is instantly broken.

    3. Both of the previous two things give little incentive to ever put up a strong defense. At a final point in any game type, strong defense is necessary because the primary goal is to break the attackers' momentum long enough to either run down the clock or gather your own offensive push. Offensive momentum here can be broken by simply blowing them off the cart and pushing it the other way immediately.

    4. The possibility of a stalemate is huge. In 5 CP, all the primary action can be locked down around a single area, but back-capping keeps stalemates to a minimum (in well designed maps, anyway). Back-capping instantly changes where the focus of combat needs to be. With this push-pull cart, there is no possibility of a back-cap, so the combat is always focused on the cart. If the cart is between second and final point when a standstill occurs and neither team can make a decisive push, there is nothing you can do.
     
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  15. Zhan

    Zhan L5: Dapper Member

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    Whoa, sorry, didn't see this post until now. You raise some very good points which I will consider, though some of these Icarus has addressed already with his gametype. Even though it may seem like the momentum of a push can be broken by just a few players, I never really got this feeling in testing of this version because the cart moves at different speeds for the attacking and defending teams.

    About stalemates: the map has not stalemated in 17 rounds of testing. If for some reason it starts stalemating more often in later rounds, a foolproof way to prevent stalemates would be to do something like add 10 seconds to the defending team's respawn time when the clock reaches 2 minutes.

    Also, bump for gameday/impromptu. Any more comments?

    Known problems that I will probably address: cart dispenser is broken, too difficult to retake mid, final CP area is too cramped and last point should be moved back, forward spawns are too close to the action
     
  16. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    i dunno i didn't really find it "fun." felt way too small for me, but it worked as far as balance. mid was pretty fun though. can't believe you made this in a day :confused:
     
  17. Doctor Paprika

    Doctor Paprika L4: Comfortable Member

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    I only played the fixed version of the map for a few rounds, and it didn't stalemate. I didn't mean to sound overly negative, but I was just mainly trying to come up with explanations for why almost everyone in the server found the game type boring.