Avante

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by grazr, Apr 30, 2009.

  1. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    The biggest complaint was that the final point was pretty much a maze of corridors and so i have opened it up and attempted to remove as many needless nooks and crannies as possible.

    I'm still torn on the location of the final CP being in it's new location or it's old. The new area seems to work but the area outside seems complicated/all over the place when it shouldn't. I clearly ran out of space within the building.

    The first stage suffers from a lot of brown wood. I'll have to more intelligently break up textures for visual ease. It also remains fairly overwhelming in size somehow (partly due to the climb in height per CP area), but atleast the play area has been braught to a more respectable scale.

    The second area suffers from a lack of space despite having removed most corridors and crannies. If i can't redeem this one way or another by the final release i'll probably just open this area up into one or two rooms rather than 4/5 that it currently is.

    The map has compiled fine i just need to fix 2 doors, finish the Red's second spawn and fix a few render distances for props after having opened up the right in the second stage. Then i'll move onto making better use of the CP4 area and pretty up the map egdes.

    Finally, yes i am aware there are a few bugs in some of these screen shots, these will be addressed on the next release.

    Without further adue, screenshots:
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  2. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Ok so the right hand side of CP 4 has been addressed, finally. Secondary right route has been made purely defencive in purpose. I know how i am to build the final CP fully, i am addressing how to possibly connect the basement to the left hand side, now that it is no longer possible to access the entrance of the final CP via the exit of the basement.

    [​IMG]

    This will complete CP 3 and 4 with a possible rework of the right of spawn.

    CP's 1 and initial spawn are being completed. Over all space is being narrowed and height reduced.

    CP2 remains a gameplay anomoly. Defence is difficult if not impossible as reliance is on a completely mobile defence strategy. Attempting to justify secondary spawn exit for defender's by reducing it's height onto the "playing field" as it is currently quite (too, infact) high. Attempting to smooth out gameplay between CP 1 and 2 but is proving difficult without advancing spawn technique used in the original (players would spawn in the open on the previously captured CP).

    Development progress:

    Spawn/CP1 90% reconstruct confining area around round gates.

    CP1/CP2 70% Full layout revamp.

    CP2/Spawn 90% Lower second Spawn exit for defenders

    Spawn/CP3 90%

    CP3/CP4 70% Addressing Basement's use and final layout of CP4

    CP4/Spawn 99% (lowering height of spawn so that it comes out at ground level rather than against the top floor, gave a clostraphobic feel to rocket/grenade jumpers as max sky height was only a few units above them).
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  3. DaFatCat

    DaFatCat L3: Member

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    Looks like pretty good quality stuff from the screenshots, nice job!
     
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  4. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Bump.

    Now with ingame shots. Sorry for the overload, but apparently there's no such thing as too many screenshots.
     
  5. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Bump #2.

    Added file to download.

    Wow. No one seems interested in this at all. Fail me.
     
  6. NovaSilisko

    aa NovaSilisko L42: Life, the Universe and Everything

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    I think it looks good.
     
  7. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    no doubt, it is an awesome looking map...

    It has some serious potential. But I think it has some flaws. My main problem is that cp3 and 4 do not resemble avanti in the slightest bit, while cp1 and 2 do. So, when blu caps 1and 2 and the second round starts, you come out expecting to see something that reminds you of avanti, to no avail.


    seems like cp1 and 2 are too big and open while cp 3 and 4 are cluster fucks.


    Personally, I'm not too fond of the game set up either. The 2 rounds just feels awkward.


    But the detail work is excellent!


    I played this once on gameday a while back (must have been the b1 release). We had fun, but cp 3 and 4 was too confusing to enjoy.
     
  8. red_flame586

    red_flame586 L7: Fancy Member

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    looks nice, I wish I could make a map that looks as good as that
     
  9. Lazy Eskimo

    Lazy Eskimo L2: Junior Member

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    When blue tries to come out of spawn red can just spam the exit from good spots. Too hard for blue just to get a couple feet outside of doorway.
     
  10. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    ...that's how all attack/defend maps are. It's like that on purpose.
     
  11. Lazy Eskimo

    Lazy Eskimo L2: Junior Member

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    Yeah I guess I never played a attack/defend map before :eek:hmy: Just to get out of doors is too hard for a attack/defend map. Maps should be played beyond the spawn doorway.
     
  12. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Did you download what is respectively Beta 3 and walk through it then? Stage 1 is now mildly reduced in size, the only issue visually is how tall the central building tends to dwarfs players. But it's nothing that doesn't compare to buildings from Gravelpit or Badwater. It was always something i had to work around.

    That's why there is a second exit from Blu spawn that comes out in cover on the left.

    I already posted up comparrison shots which show exactly how they do resemble CP 3 and 4 from Avanti. The only thing that has changed significantly is the right hand side for stage 2 which still remains a cramped area, but was redesigned with size in mind. I gave it a height advantage as otherwise it was too easily locked down by sentries. Beyond CP 3 the original Avanti design was simply boring.

    People seem more concerned in thinking it's not Avanti just because it's not a copy and paste job. TF2 has different scaling and simply replicating the map makes it look gimmicky and ammetuer. Not to mention how Sentry guns sight range is Half what TFC used to be so i have had to make sure Sentries remain as effective as they were in Avanti. I designed the map with TF2 gameplay mechanics and art style in mind. Not to get stuck in the past and end up with a broken map.

    Admittedly the final point was an issue because i wanted it to be more imperssive for a final show down but there just wasn't the space. As i said in the changes all the corridors have been removed. My first concern for the final stage is that Red spawn too close to CP3 but this was always true in the original.

    If fans hate the right hand side beyond CP3 maybe i will add the tunnel as it previously was in the original but i'm not sure that's what's best for the map.
    The basement was added as an alternative to the det-packable wall that is impossible to replicate without looking gimmicky-retarded ingame.

    CP4 still seems somewhat cramped because it is still not one large room like the church from the original, and i will decide (probably) to modify it further to represent this if the size of the rooms prove to still be problematic despite removing the corridors.

    This was my main problem from the start. Even without being CTF instant cap points the map still steam rolled despite it's general size. Rounds were implemented to prevent this as i also lacked the space for advanced spawns for each point. It was only ever going to be 2 rounds with only 4 CP's. It's annoying, but a design choice that was necassery to balance the map.

    I'm sorry that the map dissapoints you because it's not an unimaginative replica that most ports tend to be. But rest assured that most of the design choices were implemented due to gameplay breaking issues. If you have not played my current release you will see it has very much been improved and actually achieved a layout that closer represents Avanti than it did previously.
     
  13. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    and this is why I didn't post the feedback in the first place...



    Grazr, I'm not attacking you. You take things personal, and come back with your dukes out (alot, I see you do it all the time). I was trying to give my honest (and ametuer) opinion, I never said I was disappointed! I think your version is better than mine!


    ..I'm your friend trying to help, calm down. :)

    Anyways, my whole point is, with a name like avante, I feel it should be close enough to the original that you don't need to relearn it. Why would I want you to make AN OTHER port of avanti? We all know they are many game play differences between TFC and TF2, which is why avanti_b1 sucks (IMO).


    So, take it or leave it. I'm done.
     
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  14. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I was about to post up some feedback for your map and say some things that would hopefully make you feel less like i have ignored your comments on my map, due to my seemingly harsh defencive attitude. But i've been busy. This stuff is still on my desktop and i will get around to posting it tomorrow. Hopefully it will help.

    I'm just tired of the only "feedback" anyone ever says is "well i don't see how this is Avanti". Without even saying how or why (and usually coming from the mouths of people who have never even played it). I feel like if they tried to justify properly how it's not, maybe they would see how it actually was, atleast if they paid attention to the basic layout, rather than each individual wall and turn. Like i demonstrated with the comparison screen shots.

    The reason why i was defencive was because each of your listed concerns had been addressed in this very release.

    You said the first stage was too large and yet i have reduced it in size by a quarter, you said the second stage was too clumsy, tight and full of winding corridors and yet i have removed all the corridors in favour of large rooms. It just didn't seem like you payed any attention to this release and posted what you remembered from a redundant release many months ago.

    I hear what you are saying, L3eeron and i appreciate the feedback as i do listen to it, otherwise most of these changes you see now would not have been implemented since B1 and B2.

    Everything you have mentioned has been addressed in one form, way, or another. Be it majorly or minorly. Hopefully you can see for yourself when i submit it to a gameday for actual playtesting, and then decide whether to take the changes further.

    I normally expect a fairly thorough "inspection" of my map from this community, where people will bounce ideas off of me rather than hand me a basic solution based off of what limited knowlegde they currently have of what i want to achieve with this map. I am not used to working like that. Someone gives me a suggestion about something and i tell them why "a certain thing is the way it is at the moment" in the hopes that they will provide me with a suitable alternative or more relative resolution. Rather than telling me to "fix it", because that doesn't help.

    I'm listening to you more than you think, i just think you misunderstand my responses.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  15. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Ok, gameday bump so people can see the thread for feedback.

    Thanks to everyone who tested it and was petient to see right through to the last submission (IE, mine :p).

    Ingame advice i heard:

    Reduce Blu spawn wait time.
    Slightly increase Red spawn wait time.
    Rework some signage in the first stage so that people don't get confused after capping CP1.

    I'll probably reduce cap time on the second CP in the first stage since it's right by Red spawn, but hopefully spawn time changes will be enough.


    The second area is still confusing, i had hoped my extra signage and simplification of the right side, and removing corridors on the left would remedy most of this as this was the problematic area, but now it's the CP not being seen and the tight U turn of the left. Shmitz said that the U turn was a bit of a problem?

    Someone said there was too much detail. ABS i think? If you could show me where detail was a problem then that would be nice, thanks.

    edit: Also i think i'm gonna remove the forwad access to the basement and re-open up the back for Blu. I'll be extending the back to give more space and confuse players less by removing all the corners/turns so the spawn camping shouldn't be a problem for Red, like it was in the past with the basement access.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2009
  16. Psy

    aa Psy The Imp Queen

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    Generally it was a fun map aside from the bias towards Red. I personally believe that you should vary your texturing a bit as everything is brown which makes it more difficult to learn the map. Oh, and there was a bug where the prop door at the back of Blu's spawn wouldn't open or close.
     
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  17. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Yea, i'm aware of this door. There's no open or close animation for the model and it doesn't seem to want to slide with its parent. There's some sort of weird delay on it, i'm not sure.. door opens but the model doesn't slide in sync with its parent. The areaportal is synced though and so you get a horrible vis visual bug.

    Working on that now.

    Loadsa' brown was another thing which i had trouble getting around on the first stage. I mean, look at 2fort. Most of it is red. There is some yellow in there and some white inside, so i'll try and utilise that on the inside of the buildings. But it's the spytech that breaks it up deeper into the base for 2fort. I have a fairly clean cut of pure red theme on one side and spytech on the other. I'll try and incorporate more metal in the first stage and use proper spytech within the final CP.

    Should work.
     
  18. Acegikmo

    aa Acegikmo

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    Here's a useful screenshot bind for you:
    bind f5 "r_drawviewmodel 0;cl:drawhud 0;jpeg_quality 100;wait 20;jpeg;r_drawviewmodel 1;cl_drawhud 1"
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I'm just lazy, tbh. If you're refering to the lack of true screenshots.

    In my next beta i'll build cubemaps and take actual screenshots without the model and hud. I believe i forgot to buildcubemaps in this release. Thanks though. P.S. why the long wait, "wait 20"?