Artpassing a map as a learning experience

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by MetalKev, Jun 29, 2012.

  1. MetalKev

    MetalKev L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    70
    Positive Ratings:
    23
    Hey guys
    So after testing my last map it seems I still am struggling to get a good handle on map design even after ~300 hours of working in hammer. I'm not trying to get down on myself or trying to find an easy shortcut, (I know there isn't one) I'm just being realistic. I think it may be time for a different approach.
    I'm thinking about doing an artpass of a map to help me improve as a mapper. I love working in hammer, but I want to work on something good until I'm competent enough to work on something good and original and working on a decent map in-depth should help me learn good mapping principles in a more immediate way than waiting for test day to be told why all my ideas suck.
    So my three questions are: Do you think this is a bad idea? Is there anything I should know before trying this? And is there anything I could do that people are interested in seeing?

    EDIT: and as a presumptive reply, I'd be purely doing this for my own learning benefit, not to make my name as a mapper or to create something for release.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  2. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

    Messages:
    1,871
    Positive Ratings:
    1,246
    if you struggle with gameplay design, environment design won't be of much help
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. MetalKev

    MetalKev L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    70
    Positive Ratings:
    23
    I guess my thinking is that if I work with something thats been designed well for gameplay I can learn from it through the careful examination I'd have to do to artpass it, if that makes more sense.
     
  4. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    4,499
    Disgaree with this

    I had huge problems understanding Hammer and scale before the artpass contest, when I was able to see what an alpha map looked like and understand every piece of a half finished map

    That doesn't mean my actual first maps weren't garbage, but I was far closer to TF2 scale and design with those than I was before

    and look at me now

    I think it's a fine idea. I'd recommend using the artpass map (since you can also see how imaginative people got with it) or you can download and mess around with Diner.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 29, 2012
  5. MetalKev

    MetalKev L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    70
    Positive Ratings:
    23
    Thanks for the suggestion of using the artpass map yyler, I think that is where I'll start.
    I guess my larger point is that while I like using hammer and like the creativity of mapping I feel like I'm just treading water. To make a comparison when I learned drums I could quickly hear what things I was doing wrong, correct those things and thereby progress. When I map I work 20-30 hours to learn so little from feedback it becomes really frustrating. If I don't find a better way for me to improve it'll be hard to fight the temptation to just quit and avoid the hassle.
     
  6. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

    Messages:
    1,871
    Positive Ratings:
    1,246
    so which one is it :p

    also, correlation, causation and all that shit. did you learn shit directly from artpass or did you merely got better about at the same time artpass coincided?

    also edit: i dont get much info from feedback either. watching stvs over and over to understand why players go where they go gives a fuckton more info than feedback ever could give unless you receive fivepage essays regularly
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2012
  7. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    4,499
    I had problems understanding how a map in Hammer should look and feel and be constructed before the Artpass contest gave me a way to view a finished alpha that was of reasonably good quality. Make sense? Without that contest, I don't think I would have kept at it either.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  8. MetalKev

    MetalKev L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    70
    Positive Ratings:
    23
    Thanks so much for saying this. I think half my frustration is coming from what feels like wasted effort, and the other half comes from insubstantial feedback. (Not that I expect anyone to give an essay on why my terrible a1 is so shitty) This'll be really helpful.
     
  9. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    263
    Positive Ratings:
    214
    That's what ended up being Mountainlab/Mann Manor, right? Where can I see the other entries? Neither the page you linked to nor the TF2maps thread about the contest seems to contain any list of entered maps, and I'd really like to see how it could have ended up looking.
     
  10. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

    Messages:
    1,871
    Positive Ratings:
    1,246
  11. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    4,499
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=15115