Arena and how it could be fun but isn't

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by owly-oop, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Messages:
    817
    Positive Ratings:
    1,154
    Let's take arena, the worst gamemode into tf2 and explain why it deserves that rank

    What happens

    Both teams clash together at the line of symmetry. No one falls back because the health (if any) is only at the middle. Once the fighting stops, there will be 2 or 3 people left on each team unless if it was a total roll. What happens is that all the players run randomly in circles not seeing eachother in a stupidly long game of mouse & mouse. No one is the cat because of the few supplies so no one wants to be aggressive.

    What is should be

    The opening fights over the middle point in koth or 5cp is far more fun than arena. Generally the point is already taken over before someone can die, respawn, and walk back to the fighting zone.

    Lets take a look at what 5cp middles have in common

    -A "yard" or "house" type of area. This serves as a place where people can fall back and be safe with supplies and cover but is still prone to flanks.

    -Supplies for both sides, usually inside the house

    -Ammo at middle. May or may not be some also in the yards

    -Clear distinction between a yard area and the middle. Don't know how to explain this, but it can come down to visibility being blocked.

    -Freedom of movement at middle. Avoid places that are "You can only go here or turn around".

    The most stupid unwritten rule in arena is "NO HEALTH ALLOWED".

    You could apply the listed above onto your arena map or choose a simpler solution and make your arena map koth
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  2. Lord Ned

    Lord Ned L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    421
    Positive Ratings:
    174
    Can you reinforce this with examples of successful arena maps that employ these tactics?
     
  3. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

    Messages:
    1,992
    Positive Ratings:
    1,233
    A good read.
     
  4. ANova

    ANova L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    415
    Positive Ratings:
    124
    It's not been done that i know of because people look at valve for reference which this isn't shown
     
  5. Terr

    aa Terr Cranky Coder

    Messages:
    1,591
    Positive Ratings:
    405
    Orrrr you could just play KOTH ;)
     
  6. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

    Messages:
    1,992
    Positive Ratings:
    1,233
    Valve arena maps are really bad. Lumberyard and Ravine are the only two I enjoy.
     
  7. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Messages:
    817
    Positive Ratings:
    1,154
    If arena_badlands had the health in it then it would. Maybe.

    Most of the valve arena maps have fun middles but the lack of supplies kills it
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010
  8. Penguin

    aa Penguin Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome

    Messages:
    1,992
    Positive Ratings:
    1,233
    Because it's named badlands.

    :O
     
  9. Lord Ned

    Lord Ned L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    421
    Positive Ratings:
    174
    No no, I don't mean "oh this map does" I mean load up the map and say "Note the health far from the point here, and the fall back zone here".

    According to tf2stats, the most successful arena maps are badlands, lumberyard, granary and nucleus.

    How come they don't all employ these tactics? You claim badlands does but what about the other 3?
     
  10. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

    Messages:
    1,773
    Positive Ratings:
    1,528
    +remove the giant ammo boxes for nests right by spawn
     
  11. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Messages:
    817
    Positive Ratings:
    1,154
    The other 3 maps don't have such a strong yard/house as badlands does. Not saying that a yard should have no downsides.

    Lumberyard has a tiny safe house to the team's right, Staying out anywhere else makes you easily vulnerable from the roof.

    Granary has the yard right infront of yard which does server as a safe area but it becomes difficult to push out of it. Not to the extent of killing the map though

    Nucleus seems to me a merry-go-round map.
     
  12. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,562
    So basically "add health if you feel like it" and "add intermediate areas". I was expecting something a little more innovative if i'm honest.

    It all strikes me as rather general advice since arena doesn't leave much to the imagination besides these variables anyway.

    Arena is considered "not fun" because of the mentality of the average TF2 player. They want to get into combat ASAP, to the point where a 20 second respawn in CTF is unbearable. If 20 second respawn makes CTF unpopular then no respawn makes arena incredibly unpopular.

    The no health/1 health pack aspect is a bit of a bitch rule, but nothing more than a novel "suggestion" if you really think about it. But as is the case with any custom map for any mode, the author gets to pick and choose the contents of his level including layout and item drops. So surely these possibilities go without saying. They either do this or they don't.

    After all, "fun" is subjective. Other players may completely disagree with this observation.

    As far as my opinion goes Valve made arena to add more value to the engineer and medic classes in a more competitive public environment. This is why we don't see the things you're talking about. Valve created the environment that we think "sucks" to increase team work. change it and teamwork reduces and Arena loses it's novel play style. Making nothing more than a KoTH knock-off Arena map.

    Arena is a decent concept, it just doesn't compliment the player base as much as other modes. Changing it into anything else defeats the purpose of Arena. The layout advice is good, but as is the case with any mode, some maps will always be better than others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2010