All-Indoor Map: Yay or Nay?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by agent00kevin, Mar 22, 2011.

  1. agent00kevin

    agent00kevin L1: Registered

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    Hi all, its been a while since I logged in, but I've opened up my old WIP TF2 maps again. I figured I'd ask for your opinions on whether or not an all-indoor map is a good thing, or not.

    So....there you have it. Would an all-indoor map be appealing, or turn players off of it? This particular map was a hit on Far Cry 2, (known as UNS Grindhouse) but the TF2 crowd is a much different type of gamer, and TF2 is a much different type of game. The map is small, but has both CQC and Ranged combat. Some would say Quake-style mapping. (and they did on FC2)

    I figured it might be good to get a general consensus before I go porting all my indoor maps to TF2...Ive got over 100 maps to choose from. (not all are 100%indoor maps though)
     
  2. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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  3. Surtr

    Surtr L1: Registered

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    Personally I think TF2 mechanics have always worked best in an outdoors environment with less accented buildings as transitions between objectives (be it capture points or flags). In my experience of mapping indoors are both harder to make look normal and difficult to balance game play wise.

    Despite all of this, I say that you go ahead and stick to your ideas. Even if you have the map be played on game day and everyone hates it (which has happened to me multiple times), at least it will be unique and your own creation. Have fun making the map, and I hope to play test it soon.

    Cheers.
     
  4. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Generally I've not seen many great all-indoor maps... ie: Junction or Blackmesa 1&2. They are both good maps, but they really aren't great, and they both have flaws. (lots of em)... A kinda psuedo indoor map, like part outside part inside works well (I think Steel is like that)...

    Overall I've always been wary on doing indoor maps. I started to make an indoor map once. It didn't live very long.
     
  5. REEJ

    REEJ L7: Fancy Member

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    stick a couple fake windows and people should be satisfied
     
  6. Vincent

    aa Vincent 🔨 Grandmaster Lizard Wizard Jedi 🔨

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    Junction. Looks pretty. Plays shitty.

    But to be completely fair to Turbine it plays fine and I enjoy it when I play it, it just doesn't have that "wow this looks really nice" feeling while playing it.

    Finding a balance between the two maps in gameplay/detailing could be fun and interesting. After all they're both official. What's the worst that could happen.
     
  7. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Turbine's problem is being severely underdetailed. It's pretty much just spytech all over, and there is more that can be done with the indoor theming.

    The problem, I think, is that working any of the other indoor theming into a map that has no exit is hard to justify. Look at Well: it basically has four schemes, trainyard, wood/brick interior, concrete interior, and spytech. The two in the middle are justified by being extensions of the bases' façades, their ostensible functions as distilleries. There isn't much call for a façade when the whole map is inside the same building already, so there's not much to do with the non-spytech stuff that makes sense.

    Which brings up another point: the neutral-zone/façade/secret-base progression is pretty central to TF2's design. A map that doesn't use this in some way is liable to stand out pretty badly against all the ones that do. Even the A/D and payload maps that take place entirely in RED territory except for the BLU base (which is usually in some kind of cave, by the way) take place mostly on land that RED is allegedly using for some practical purpose (usually mining), and places BLU's base a distance away from their actual buildings.

    EDIT: Here's something that explains the whole thing better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  8. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    arena_nucleus

    Good map. Indoors completely.
     
  9. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    [​IMG]

    Wut





    In response to the question there's nothing wrong with indoors provided you don't skip on the lights and details. Take a look at gorge, well and hydro for reference on indoor areas with a good scale and remember to provide plenty of opportunities for rocket and sticky jumping.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  10. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    i doubt junction would become much better if all its' ceilings were replaced with skybox brush :p
     
  11. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    It's indoors in the sense of the world, isn't it? Just because it has sky. If that sky wasn't there, it wouldn't change anything.
     
  12. drp

    aa drp

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    i like turbine :(
     
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  13. Wilson

    aa Wilson Burial by Sleep

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    I second this.
     
  14. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Turbine is OK, it just lacks details and a variaty of tactical options. You should take the opportunity to learn from Flobster's mistakes.
     
  15. Jeremy

    Jeremy L11: Posh Member

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    I find turbine fun. I always found it bare but it is really fun.

    Anyway, indoor maps, in my opinion, are hard to make compared to outdoor ones.
     
  16. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Pretty much sums it up, IMO. Theres no reason NOT to, its just more work.
     
  17. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    You're thinking about it backwards. All maps are essentially rooms connected to other rooms. They might be very large rooms for outdoor areas, but the map boundaries, whether skybox or walls or playerclips, still make rooms.

    How you detail the rooms is completely up to you and determines whether they're "outdoor" or "indoor."

    And now I have said 'rooms' enough that it sounds funny. Rooms, rooms, rooms.

    Kep
     
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  18. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    ^^

    Essentially you're just trading one detail design approach with another, whilst detail wise things may become more straight forward, lighting will be, or at least should be, your focus. The difficulty will be making things fresh and interesting, keeping to a light design style but not making things too repetitive.
     
  19. McNuggetFiend

    McNuggetFiend L3: Member

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    Those maps are bad because they are spam-tastic and offer minimal flanking options for classes like Spy and Scout. A map ideally could be "indoor" and still play well, but it would have to be so massive that it would probably look rather awkward as an indoor only structure. Just my two cents. I like the blend of the two like Gorge, myself.
     
  20. agent00kevin

    agent00kevin L1: Registered

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    Wow, thanks for all the replies :O

    I think Im going to stick to my indoor/outdoor designs for the most part. As one of the replies brought up, it is quite difficult to make the larger inddor areas look as good as outdoor areas, given that you cant decorate with tress and cars and trains etc as easily. I am going to finish the one I started, but Ive refocused on one I designed for TF2 for now. The Far Cry 2 maps will show up eventually, as I choose which ones are best suited for a port to TF2. If all goes well I should be al to pump them out fairly quickly since they've had 100s maybe 1000s of hours of playtesting already given that I ran 3 24/7 servers for 15 months. With the level design already done and the playtesting hashed out for the most part, (minus some TF2 tweaks) it shouldnt take as long as starting from scratch.

    I appreciate all the replies and points of view! This was surely the right place to ask the question :)