AAAAHH a leper texture!

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Pink_Panther, Jan 22, 2009.

  1. Pink_Panther

    Pink_Panther L3: Member

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    Seriously, whats the valid reason that every texture must be a tf2 texture? Realistic textures look like crap because they are realistic?

    Here's what I don't understand: its ok to create new gameplay styles but a single texture thats not pure to the valve style isnt. Why the seperation of the two concepts? This distain even goes as far that a map 'sucks' simply because of a texture choice. What is it about the default textures that are so important but isnt important for gameplay?

    I have heard the statements about how valve through out all previos things and started from scratch...but is this a valid reason to copy everything they do? doesnt that mean exactly the thing to do is to look outside the standards and determine what is possible. This is ok for making new gameplay styles, but should it not extend beyond the arrangement of props, entities and a couple digits typed into the settings?
     
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  2. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    Visuals determine the map's downloads by server operators normally: A good looking map is more downloaded than a bad looking one. One of the major problems with the non-tf2 textures is that it doesn't match the overall style of the visual scheme; It is far too gritty and non-coldwarposteresque. The realistic look to a map clashes with the cartoonish overdevelopments of the characters, items, ect.

    We do it because it looks better with the characters, not because Valve does it. Or at least that is why I do it.
     
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  3. TotalMark

    TotalMark L6: Sharp Member

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    Cut out some Norman Rockwell paintings and paste them on a photograph sometime.

    Photo realistic textures belong to a photo realistic game.

    (i.e., What 'tater said)
     
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  4. Pink_Panther

    Pink_Panther L3: Member

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    You understand the point, thanks.


    Show me a photo realistic game and you will also show me a game nobody would play. I don't use 'realistic' to mean a photograph. I use 'realistic' to mean if a texture is going on a rock, it looks like a rock, not a blurred impression of what some may think looks something like a rock.

    You have yet to understand the point.
     
  5. Zeewier

    Zeewier L9: Fashionable Member

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    I really like the style of pl_Zig, and it isn't using tf2 textures.

    I think a reason why I dont like maps using hl2 textures them is the lower texture-size (512 pixels vs 1024 px)
     
  6. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    TF2 has a specific art direction. Maps for TF2 should follow said art direction. QED.
     
  7. Pink_Panther

    Pink_Panther L3: Member

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    No, valve had a particular 'art direction' when they made maps for TF2. TF2 is just a gameplay addon.

    why?
     
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  8. laghlagh

    laghlagh L6: Sharp Member

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    Because theres something called "visuals".
     
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  9. laghlagh

    laghlagh L6: Sharp Member

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    Ugh you're really irritating me. It seems like you just want to make maps quicker by making them look shitty.
     
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  10. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    Look, this is a game with a unique art direction. The maps are a part of this art direction, including textures and props. If you want to make a map that fits in with the art direction, obviously you have to follow the rules and limitations that are present. If you don't, you'll miss the whole point of the game's visuals. I don't want to sound elitist, but that's how most of us like it, and you'll just have to accept that.

    There's nothing more I can say than this. It really is this simple.
     
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  11. DJive

    aa DJive Cake or Death?

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    This topic has been discussed at length, sadly i cant find another topic to link though =/

    Imagine Cryisis in a cell shaded environment or something like Zelda...

    Or Imagine zelda in an environment like Cryisis.

    People don't "copy" Valves art direction, we follow it because its the art style of the game. HL2 textures aren't ALL looked down at, but a full map would look highly out of place.

    In this map i got a ton of mixed feedback for using the HL2 grass which in the setting i felt looked right in.
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=9907&postcount=41 You need to use your best judgment and realize that Mapping for the game isn't just making a map for the game, its following the artistic styling as well.

    Keep it civil guys.

    <- Moving thread to tf2 general.
     
  12. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I'm sorry but I have no idea what you mean by this, the art style of TF2 is wholly different from HL2. TF2 they use hand painted textures with sometimes very clear brush strokes and everything is stylized and a lot of the fiddly details are removed to cut down on visual noise. Whilst HL2 goes for realistic textures taken from photo reference with deep and intricate normal maps etc.

    When used on their own the HL2 stuff looks great, when used on its own the TF2 stuff looks great, but when the two are combined in a random assortment they look wrong because they are not consistent. That is the most important thing, if you're making a comic book you want all your drawing to be the same style, the last thing you want is a photograph in the middle of it all. If you're writing a novel you want your writing to have a consistent format throughout the book, you don't want it changing halfway through for no apparent reason - it would just confuse readers.

    Consistency is key, for me and I imagine most people that argue the point of not using HL2 textures in TF2.

    Having said this though, know that each asset available has to be weighted up to see if it is worth using. In hoodoo and halfacre I've used at least three HL2 props and the same number of HL2 textures. They'll be hard to spot though because they fit the TF2 style quite well, which at the end of the day is all that matters.

    Making new gametypes for me is something I'm largely against too, for the same reason of consistency. 90% of the custom gametypes floating around TF2 have little or no HUD elements to tell you what's going on and on top of that players are thick, I mean really thick. They won’t take the time to work out what they're supposed to do before complaining they're confused and leaving. A lot of the time the individual making the new gamemode isn't bright enough to stop and consider the changes they're making, if they make sense or they're just doing it because they can. This means a lot of new gamemodes just don't work. Putting a lot of thought and careful consideration into your new gamemode and making sure it is simple to understand from the start and has at least a working HUD might just pay off and make something worthwhile.

    wow long post :mellow:

    Summary: Weigh everything up individually - If it fits consistently: use it. If not: cut it of like a diseased limb
     
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  13. GrimGriz

    GrimGriz L10: Glamorous Member

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    You're jumping to conclusions. The thing is, however you get the texture, valve makes it, you make it, bob makes, whatever, it shouldn't be worth commenting on. The fact that the texture you used gets comments, means that it creates such discord as to draw attention to itself.
     
  14. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    I'm a new mapper, but a heavy player of TF2, and I have to admit I am draw to playing maps the keep with a theme, as youme said about the random textures use here and there, it, I think, would be the equivelant of using an alpine theme for alot and then just having random desert textures. It's like, if you were playing HL2 and you came across a TF2 texture you'd be like "WTF?" No? It just looks out of place. However maps should be judged more on gameplay, and balance than looks, this being said most server owners will look at screenshots before downloading a map... I think you see where I am going with this. (I hope)
     
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  15. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    Um...

    I'm looking for that youtube video that shows the particular choices Valve made in picking the color palette for TF2, but I'm running out of time and have to go to class...

    Can someone post the link for that, or imbed it? I think that video would REALLY clear up panther's question.
     
  16. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I think you mean this one? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&fmt=18"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIikwDbZTCI&fmt=18[/ame]
    Gets into the texturing and models at about 1:20
     
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    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  17. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    this?
    YouTube - TF2 - IllustrativeRendering (no need to embed it twice)

    too slow :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2009
  18. HojoTheGreat

    HojoTheGreat L5: Dapper Member

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    Youme put it all very well. I think the reason it is important to keep material consistency is simple:
    If you notice a difference in two materials styles, they don't belong together. Meaning in some cases, as Youme said, certain materials do go well between games, but only if they blend well. If you are able to NOTICE a difference, then they don't fit. You can use a lot of Counter-Strike's textures in HL2 and you'd never notice and vice-versa, but the art-style of TF2 is so blatantly different it's jarring to see a grungy realistic wall texture from HL2 in the game. So if you can't tell the difference on first glance, I say use it. Otherwise keep materials to their respective games.
     
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  19. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    The short version I usually tell new mappers is that filtering for tf textures simply gives you higher quality textures. TF2 textures are 1024x1024 pixel free textures, whereas 90% of the other textures in hammer are 512x512, pixel infiltrated and grainy textures meant for more photo realistic games.
     
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  20. Brandished

    Brandished L5: Dapper Member

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    For me, the big draw of Valve games from the start was how immersive they are, were I can believe that I'm actually part the game. The immersion was a big part in what kept me interested in playing the games through to the end. When a games immersion starts to break, I don't really feel like I'm inside the game's enviroment any longer, but sitting at a desk / couch / table / etc moving a mouse and hitting keys on a keyboard (or mashing buttons on a controller).

    I see mapping as trying to trick the player into believing they are in the game's "fantasy" world by trying to include everything you can they might expect to find there. The problem I see isn't necessarily having HL2 textures in TF2, but having players see something that is totally out of place for a given environment. I liken this it to watching a big budget movie drama about the height of the ancient Roman Empire and halfway through an important battle a Pizza Hut delivery guy drives through the middle of the fight to drop off a peperoni with mushrooms.

    Not all TF2 art assets make sense when place next to each other, but they all mostly match the player, HUD and weapon elements for the game; the same can't be said for many of the HL2 assets. I think you can still get away using some of the HL2 stuff in TF2, but, as Youme has said, you want to make sure they won't come into sharp contrast with a TF2 elements, otherwise you start to lose the realism of the environment.

    There was a good article from GamaSutra a while back about immersion here:
    http://designersnotebook.com/Columns/063_Postmodernism/063_postmodernism.htm
     
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