A Question of Symmetry

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by iDemonix, Oct 6, 2013.

  1. iDemonix

    iDemonix L1: Registered

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    Hi all,

    Back in the day (5-6 years ago?) I used to make small CS Source + DoD Source maps, like deathmatch maps and very small CTF maps. Some of them got fairly popular amongst some communities and I was pretty comfortable mapping, I even ran a small website about how to make DoD Source maps.

    Anyway, fast-forward 6 years and I've forgotten almost everything. Now, one of the main things I want to know about making TF2 maps, is how do you master symmetry? I play ETF2L and my fave map type is obviously cp_ - but they're so perfectly symmetrical!

    Do people design one half of the map, get to a crucial point of NO TURNING BACK and then copy + paste + rotate? Then everything requires two changes? Or do people actually make the map bit by bit? It's something I never had to think about from DoD or CS!
     
  2. Valkyrie

    Valkyrie Guest

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    you make it till the middle, then copy paste, or you can use instances
     
  3. Idolon

    aa Idolon the worst admin

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    Most people I know just make half of the map, then copy/paste/rotate. Keep in mind, this is mostly done during the alpha stage of mapping, meaning only the basic layout is getting copied over; no detailing to worry about. You can also take advantage of instances (introduced with L4D2, I think) to try and keep sides exactly the same, but it's mostly a matter of personal preference.
     
  4. phi

    aa phi Let Pain Be Your Guide

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    For 5CP maps, I make the alpha 1 on one half of the map, then rotate it around - for every sequential update, I just update half the map and rotate it around again. It takes a while once the changes get complicated (like remaking/detailing) but it works and that's how I've been making 5CP maps. Works for me. Sometimes I'll just edit both sides if the changes are minimal but for big changes I'll usually do what I described above.
     
  5. iDemonix

    iDemonix L1: Registered

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    Thanks for the quick and concise replies everyone. I presumed it was as simple as making half then a copy + rotate job, but wanted to make sure in case I do it that way and there's some super-easy-10x-better-awesome way of doing it.

    Let's get mapping!
     
  6. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    A tip; keep the very center, and the edge of one half of the map, along the 0, 0 axis (also go for the z axis if you're feeling especially fancy) and then put a massive skip brush over the entire half of the map, ending right at the center lines. I usually make this on a 512 grid or something huge like that. Make sure in envelopes everything.

    When you go to rotate, grab the whole map and that skip brush, and now you can flip it around, keeping everything exactly on grid as it is on the other side, with a simple way to line everything up.

    Then you can keep these skip brushes on the map as you work on it and any changes you make to one side can be selected along with the skip brush and rotated into place on the other side.

    This works for rotational and mirrored symmetry, but you can run into prop issues with mirrored, so keep an eye out for it.

    I've done this for just about every symmetrical map I've worked on and it makes everything so much easier.
     
  7. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    However. Make sure you don't continually clone/duplicate map-engulfing skip brushes. And preferably don't compile with them.

    Despite common assumption, they are not completely ignored. Having multiple map-covering skips can quickly push you into one of the more esoteric BSP limits. Mangy had a problem with Wildfire he couldn't figure out until I did some poking and discovered it was his clone-and-rotate skips.
     
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  8. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    I usually try to clean them up after I copy, leaving only one per side. I have totally encountered that lame issue, too, forgot to mention it. Mine was caused by too big of skip brushes that were getting close to the boundaries.
     
  9. iDemonix

    iDemonix L1: Registered

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    I think I kind of understand that, but if you ever fancy doing a tutorial with pics/video, I'm sure it'd be useful to many new mappers ;)
     
  10. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    I may just have to do that some time. I've been meaning to get into doing small video tutorials on my Youtube channel.