A heads-up about the SDK

Ravidge

Grand Vizier
aa
May 14, 2008
1,544
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Hammer needs a symmetry/mirror modifier much like the ones that exist in 3d modeling.

Select a visgroup and add a mirror function to it. Throw in some conditions that automatically renames/replaces info (like targetnames and team affiliation) created on the other side of the mirror-plane.
 

EArkham

Necromancer
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Aug 14, 2009
1,625
2,773
Select a visgroup and add a mirror function to it. Throw in some conditions that automatically renames/replaces info (like targetnames and team affiliation) created on the other side of the mirror-plane.

You can do that with instances, even having it rename entities and change fields. For basic brushwork, you can use cntrl-L.

Personally I tend not to use instances for this because you need different textures and slightly different architecture between BLU and RED styles, which so far I haven't figured out how to handle in an instance.

Plus there are some issues with how instanced textures and displacements are oriented during compile time... so being able to mirror a visgroup without it being an instance would certainly save a little bit of headache.
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
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Jun 9, 2009
2,364
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Fubar's comment was probably aimed mostly at TF2 mapping, since instancing was tacked on as an afterthought and just refuses to work properly.
 

Penguin

Clinically Diagnosed with Small Mapper's Syndrome
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May 21, 2009
2,039
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Fubar's comment was probably aimed mostly at TF2 mapping, since instancing was tacked on as an afterthought and just refuses to work properly.

? ? ?

all of the torches in nat20 are instances that aren't collapsed before compile, and the map is fine.
 

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
aa
Jun 1, 2009
1,720
1,978
? ? ?

all of the torches in nat20 are instances that aren't collapsed before compile, and the map is fine.

depends what you are compiling, if you ever compile instanced displacements you will hate your life. collapsing avoids a lot of problems in general.
 

NoodleCollie

Stoat fiend
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Jul 30, 2009
383
335
Something I found out today: when the HL2 source code was leaked way back when, the Hammer source code was within the leaked content. The source code still resides on Google Code under hl2sources.
 

Fish 2.0

L6: Sharp Member
Nov 22, 2012
324
262
It's only due to the fact that TF2 has game modes that there's a need to have a specific entity structure repeated on lots of maps

That's the point. You actually can't do much because the entities you are given were made for only what valve needed them to do, not what we would like them to.
 

NoodleCollie

Stoat fiend
aa
Jul 30, 2009
383
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No, they were made to perform generic functions like count, detect players in a volume, move, handle props, etc. There are very few specialised entities - the only ones I can think of that are really specialised are things like the logic_koth entity.
 

A Boojum Snark

Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado
aa
Nov 2, 2007
4,775
7,669
We aren't really talking about the generic source entities. That stuff isn't exactly useful (or is tricky) to work into game logic. All of the gamemode related entities are specialized; tf_logic_*, flags, train watchers, etc.

Game modes in TFC were difficult to set up if you didn't know what you were doing because there were virtually no restrictions. There were only about three "generic" tf-specific game logic entities, and they could be used for everything for ammo pickups to control points. However, all the game logic keyvalues that those entities had were also on almost every other entity in the game. Heck, we only recently got the ability to specify team-specific sounds/voiceovers for purposes of custom game modes, and sound is one of the most beneficial things for teaching a new mode.

Numerous conditionals, attributes, effects, kinds of scoring, hud messages... and on top of it, all of this could be filtered to only affect certain teams/players at any given time. At risk of sounding excessive, having been someone who loved this aspect of TFC, when TF2 came out the choking restrictiveness of the entities was the most soul crushing thing about the prospect of mapping in the "shiny new engine"

edit: (oh and lets not forget, we don't even have the option for 3 or 4 teams, or per-team class restriction, there go a lot of game mode options down the drain...)
 
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henke37

aa
Sep 23, 2011
2,075
515
I say that it makes sense to do the entities as they are done. In theory that is. I keep hearing about strange implementation bugs.

Sure, there are a lot of insane decisions, such as the koth timers not being entities in hammer. But the overall design is sound.
 

PoignardAzur

L2: Junior Member
Mar 21, 2013
92
9
This is an interesting reminder to me of the vast differences between mappers. Since TF2's launch, and even with the later game modes, I've always seen the logic as extremely watered down and simplified into "drag-n-drop" logic that requires few entities and does everything engine-side.
Actually, I see both issues in Source : there are so many things that would benefit from being simplified (actually, lots of them are in your URMP ^^) like the doors, and the game logic for standard maps ; but on the other hands, lots of things are unnecessarily high level like the func doors, the boolean level logic, or even the way control points work.
I'm not sure if I'm right (or even understandable) but that's the feeling I have looking at Hammer.

Sergis : yeah, but you can both have low-level options and simple drag-and-drop tools (like the PTI Portal editor). In fact, that's what I would like to see in Source : very simple, basic logic that could let you do whatever you want like a modder (but as mapper), AND some very simplified objects to let one make classic map logic in a few seconds.

x6herbius : IMO, Source isn't low-level enough, and Hammer objects would be far better than prefabs (less issues with renaming, better encapsulation...).

Something I found out today: when the HL2 source code was leaked way back when, the Hammer source code was within the leaked content. The source code still resides on Google Code under hl2sources.
That's great !
(but the one who stole the code is still an evil guy who will burn in hell for delaying HL2 :p)
 
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Terr

Cranky Coder
aa
Jul 31, 2009
1,590
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Wasn't PackBSP created by someone who used to post here? I wonder what happened to them.

A late reply here: On a whim I've been googling myself recently. Didn't even know TF2 was hit with the steam-pipe business.

I open-sourced PackBSP quite a while before floating off.