A changing map

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by SmallBiscuit, Feb 4, 2017.

?

Would this work?

  1. Yes

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. No

    6 vote(s)
    54.5%
  1. SmallBiscuit

    SmallBiscuit L7: Fancy Member

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    So, a while ago, I had an idea for a maze map, where the maze would randomly change as you played...

    already, there were a few problems with it, such as the confinement aspect, the slow progression of trying to get to the point,and a ton of other things...

    I still went ahead with it, and made Maze Co... It was a terrible map, that didn't have much riding for it... It was generally just not fun to play...

    But I still had the idea swirling around in my head... what if I took that original idea, took it, and changed it a bit... and tried making something out of it?

    I brainstormed possible ideas out of this, and came up with one that I liked quite a bit...

    A koth map, where each time the point was capped, the entire map would change... everything of the current map would slide into the ground, and a new map would rise up out of the ground, completely different, but (hopefully) balanced all the same...

    Now, this would be generally easy to make, it would take a while, but it wouldn't be too hard... It would just be a bunch of doors...

    Now, this map obviously wouldn't be a regular map, and would have no hope of being anything but a cool joke map...

    But my question is, would this work? it wouldn't be super claustrophobic, slow, or really any of the super negative things that came with Maze Co, but I feel their would still be some problems...

    So what do you think about this? Please tell me...
     
  2. AsG_Alligator

    aa AsG_Alligator trigger_hiss

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    Dynamic layout koth is not a bad idea. There would be a minor issue with stickies bouncing of off dynamic walls but idea on its own is pretty good.
     
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  3. SmallBiscuit

    SmallBiscuit L7: Fancy Member

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    wait, i just thought of something after reading the stickies part... how would this affect engineers and building placements?
     
  4. sooshey

    aa sooshey :3c

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    I'm not sure if engineers can build on brush entities, but you also have to keep in mind brush entities don't block vis. Meaning optimization will be pretty horrible. If you can change only a few things, like open/close a path, instead of making an entire building rise from the ground, it might work. Just don't overdo the moving parts.
     
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  5. PevWolf

    PevWolf Un-Notable Member

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    It would be kind of cool if you did this like a mash up of the regular koth maps, like every time the point is capped aspects of the map would change to match an existing theme. I know that it would be hard on engineers, horrible optimization, and a lot of entities, making it almost impossible, but i think it would be a cool thing. Maybe something like lakeside's side room appears or suijin's cliffs form. Sure it would be difficult and probably impossible, just an idea.

    koth_everytimethepointiscappedofficalmapcrapisadded
     
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  6. theatreTECHIE

    aa theatreTECHIE Yet another Techie for the net...

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    Stickies do stick to the one way doors in swiftwater, so it's probably possible to make entities as the walls, allowing stickies to be placed there. Just note that the stickies will remain in place even if the wall disappears.
     
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  7. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Stickies stick to dynamic props (they don't move with them, but still stick where they land). The best way to do it is use spawn doors or some other low poly model you can spam, make it not render and parent it to the brushes that move.
     
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  8. worMatty

    aa worMatty Repacking Evangelist

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    I see three problems with this idea:

    1. It's KoTH. Most of the changes that will be happening will be to the route the player takes to get to the point, because that comprises the majority of space in a KoTH map. That won't actually affect the gameplay much.
    2. If the enemy caps the point and suddenly your side of the map changes, you're going to be even more pissed off because not only do you have to reclaim it before the time runs out, you now have to learn a new layout.
    3. If you make big changes, then it's going to mess with the game so much that it'll just be annoying. If you want this to be a serious map with a lot of replay value, consider making few changes, but design them so that they don't feel unfair. If it's a joke map, then by all means go for it but the landscape changing isn't enough on its own to make it fun. It's just a gimmick that's good for twenty minutes.

    Try to make the changing landscape something that the players can control or influence. Make them feel like it takes some skill to pull off, and that they are giving their team an advantage. Don't force the losers to go through something which makes them feel like they are being treated unfairly. If you want the map to be about a maze-like experience, remove the pressure of a KoTH timer and consider changing the game mode or making some modifications to it. Perhaps make it more about player navigation skill, and reward that.
     
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  9. SmallBiscuit

    SmallBiscuit L7: Fancy Member

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    well,if not koth, what gamemode would work best? ctf?
     
  10. Micnax

    aa Micnax I maek map

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    CTF with changing/different routes after each cap would be interesting to see, even if it's just doorways opening/closing to certain sections.
     
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  11. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    There have been a few maps that have tried something like this. 14bit's messed around with doors that open and close in CTF and Abyss has a dynamic mid point that I always thought something similar could be interesting for KOTH.
     
  12. 14bit

    Server Staff 14bit L14: Bit Member

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    Here's the some attempts at doing something like this in CTF that I know of:

    Underpass: https://tf2maps.net/threads/underpass.25270/
    Holcan: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/holcan.2791/
    Coffee: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/coffee.1481/updates

    Here's the flag systems used in those: https://tf2maps.net/threads/ctf-flag-door-systems.27823/

    Atrophy (the flag moves, not quite the same thing): https://tf2maps.net/threads/atrophy.11223/

    I believe there's been at least one other attempt at something similar, but I can't find anything else at the moment. Note that most attempts of things like this use the dynamic elements to change the flow of the map rather than the main geometry of the map itself. Using simple systems that don't change map too much is much more effective in serious maps, particularly in relation to optimization and getting your players to understand the map.

    I did consider doing your idea as a jokemap once, but decided it would be too hard to optimize well.
     
  13. Crowbar

    aa Crowbar perfektoberfest

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    There is ctf_system with moving flags and koth_namicott with the point moving back and forth through the map.
     
  14. Twist.vmf

    Twist.vmf L6: Sharp Member

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    i had the crazy idea a few months ago to make a map that functioned like a Battlefield 4 map, the idea was to set up an intricate system of separate tiny levels (the size of a building) that could be changed out like puzzle pieces when a player dealt enough damage to one piece, an explosion and some dust would go off to disguise the pieces changing out, that way it looked like the building collapsed when in reality it just went under the map and a destroyed version took its place.
     
  15. sooshey

    aa sooshey :3c

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    This would suffer from the same issue i pointed out before. To do this, the entire building would need to be brush entities, which don't block rendering. In addition the large volume of smoke and debris would almost definitely impact fps. The only reason it works in battlefield is because its engine is built for handling destructible buildings and 64 players on a mile-wide open map
     
  16. Twist.vmf

    Twist.vmf L6: Sharp Member

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    it wouldn't be an entire sky scraper, just a watchtower or small apartment, i was evan thinking of going smaller, about the size of a chunk of wall, but yes, it would create a lot of problems, but i feel that with some creative mapping it can work.