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captainAngry
L420: High Member
- Feb 1, 2009
- 434
- 247
Played this last night. It's still a ton of fun and very interesting. Forcing people down the middle seemed to work well.
We ran a quick game of this on the servers today.
People said it was hard to defend, but that's only because traditional defence with sentry backbone is a little tougher to set up, other classes such as pyro, heavy and demoman are really good at keeping the cart under control. Sentry guns can still be utilized at base entrances.
We proved that 2 heavies can indeed just sit on the cart and stop all incoming attacks (until the last minute when 5 guys came at once from 2 directions
) so defence is not impossible... just different.
I like to think of it as a fast paced ctf map, and it encourages offence over defence.
The bases themselves are intentionally designed with a few narrow doorways and long sightlines. Snipers have a place on offence here because they can actually kill heavies and other cartriders. Spies can hide with C&D until the cart comes their way, scouts can double jump over the cart when it goes through the round door (leaving enemies on the other side, blocked temporarily by the cart). There are tons of strategies to use to win the game.
But then again you can also just charge in with a kritzed soldier and tear it apart if you want
Also: because im bumping I might aswell post a picture, It's a hammer shot since I don't really feel like compiling just yet (it's a detail area, unaccessible) and it's still unfinished.
People said it was hard to defend, but that's only because traditional defence with sentry backbone is a little tougher to set up, other classes such as pyro, heavy and demoman are really good at keeping the cart under control. Sentry guns can still be utilized at base entrances.
We proved that 2 heavies can indeed just sit on the cart and stop all incoming attacks (until the last minute when 5 guys came at once from 2 directions
) so defence is not impossible... just different.I like to think of it as a fast paced ctf map, and it encourages offence over defence.
The bases themselves are intentionally designed with a few narrow doorways and long sightlines. Snipers have a place on offence here because they can actually kill heavies and other cartriders. Spies can hide with C&D until the cart comes their way, scouts can double jump over the cart when it goes through the round door (leaving enemies on the other side, blocked temporarily by the cart). There are tons of strategies to use to win the game.
But then again you can also just charge in with a kritzed soldier and tear it apart if you want
Also: because im bumping I might aswell post a picture, It's a hammer shot since I don't really feel like compiling just yet (it's a detail area, unaccessible) and it's still unfinished.
Caliostro
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 6, 2009
- 261
- 110
Played it today and gotta say it's awesome. The moving Intel prevents extreme-turtling mode where you'd just set up 3 - 4 sentries and sit there till an ubercharge came around. It focuses the game more on offense, or at least in putting up a REAL defense. Sentry-placement has to be strategic, and not just "close to the intel/intel room".
2 critics which I mentioned in-game, but figured I'd drop written:
1 - Since you can't "sentry" camp it or drop a dispenser, turning the intel cart into a dispenser, preferably a very weak one, just to provide ammo and replenishing abilities while waiting in defense. I know this would promote defense a bit, but considering the intel is moving as is, as as soon as the intel is out of the base it's pretty much lost, I think it's fair enough to prevent a "swipe" just because you left for ammo.
2 - Currently the layout is a bit confusing... Figure details will take care of this though, so just a "note".
All in all, quite possibly the most enjoyable CTF map so far.
2 critics which I mentioned in-game, but figured I'd drop written:
1 - Since you can't "sentry" camp it or drop a dispenser, turning the intel cart into a dispenser, preferably a very weak one, just to provide ammo and replenishing abilities while waiting in defense. I know this would promote defense a bit, but considering the intel is moving as is, as as soon as the intel is out of the base it's pretty much lost, I think it's fair enough to prevent a "swipe" just because you left for ammo.
2 - Currently the layout is a bit confusing... Figure details will take care of this though, so just a "note".
All in all, quite possibly the most enjoyable CTF map so far.
Detailing update: Red base is ~90% done. Which means Blue base is also done (basically).
Then I'm moving on to the middle area, and I don't really like how it looks right now, from a gameplay perspective. I don't really know what direction to take that part, but hopefully I'll figure something out.
Sorry for the extreme size of the images, but I'm feeling lazy.
I got some helpful comments when I linked these in the chatroom earlier, thanks!
Then I'm moving on to the middle area, and I don't really like how it looks right now, from a gameplay perspective. I don't really know what direction to take that part, but hopefully I'll figure something out.
Sorry for the extreme size of the images, but I'm feeling lazy.
I got some helpful comments when I linked these in the chatroom earlier, thanks!
Last edited:
jpr
aa
- Feb 1, 2009
- 1,094
- 1,085
this message is at least 1 character.
Beta 1 released.
It's fully detailed! But, it was kinda rushed so there are some graphical errors, I hope they can be overlooked for now
I hope the new middle area will play just a great as my mind envisioned it!
Downloads and images in the firstpost.
Take note of the "Important" stuff back there too.
It's fully detailed! But, it was kinda rushed so there are some graphical errors, I hope they can be overlooked for now
I hope the new middle area will play just a great as my mind envisioned it!
Downloads and images in the firstpost.
Take note of the "Important" stuff back there too.
So, I watched a 45 min Source TV demo, featuring some of the regular US gameday guys, playing b1.
Looked like a lot of fun, wished I could have joined, but I was asleep. There were some issues concerning cubemaps, some really strage displacement you could get stuck on and a few untextured surfaces. All in all, I think the gameplay looked pretty nice, as TMP (I believe) pointed out it would probably be even smoother at lower player counts, 12-18 players or so. Just need to go over the small details one more time.
If anyone have gameplay feedback I'm still ready to do some changes where needed.
Looked like a lot of fun, wished I could have joined, but I was asleep. There were some issues concerning cubemaps, some really strage displacement you could get stuck on and a few untextured surfaces. All in all, I think the gameplay looked pretty nice, as TMP (I believe) pointed out it would probably be even smoother at lower player counts, 12-18 players or so. Just need to go over the small details one more time.
If anyone have gameplay feedback I'm still ready to do some changes where needed.
Little displacement misalignement here. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/98931/pics/ctf_system_b10000.jpg
I liked the compactness of the middle area as opposed to the previous layout. Yet it was still a very interesting area with all the different levels.
I liked the compactness of the middle area as opposed to the previous layout. Yet it was still a very interesting area with all the different levels.
Inqwel
L6: Sharp Member
- Jun 2, 2008
- 308
- 59
Actually there were a few more issues with displacements as well. http://forums.tf2maps.net/picture.php?albumid=95&pictureid=707 That square is a hole you can see into space.
Right around the corner of the same part of the map, near the exit, is a displacement near a pipe. They both float out in space near the doorway.
Right around the corner of the same part of the map, near the exit, is a displacement near a pipe. They both float out in space near the doorway.
Thanks both of you! Since it's possible to get stuck on that odd displacement, I'll probably have a new version out pretty soon. If anyone sees anything strange/odd/broken please post about it.
Anyone have anything to say about the map balance in general? The 'main' issue right at this moment is the spawncamping in larger servers... Is the alternative dropdown spawnexit enough to counter this or should I consider a secondary spawn? (no idea where that would fit...)
Anyone have anything to say about the map balance in general? The 'main' issue right at this moment is the spawncamping in larger servers... Is the alternative dropdown spawnexit enough to counter this or should I consider a secondary spawn? (no idea where that would fit...)
Zwiffle
L6: Sharp Member
- Jun 24, 2008
- 269
- 161
I played this a while ago but forgot to post comments. I can't say I hated it, but I'm not sure I was a fan of it. First off, I'm not a huge ctf fan, but this sort of thing is interesting.
At first, nothing much was going on because both teams just camped the flag until they figured out wth was going on. Later on, it became much more oriented on offensive-based teamwork, and each team basically left an engi and heavy/medic guarding the flag, and the gameplay picked up quite a bit.
Now this might have been around the time that rocket jumping was screwed up, so this might not actually be the case, but the catwalk entrance was too high to consistently rocket jump too. It seemed I could barely make it. If this isn't a problem since they fixed the rocket jump bug, then never mind. Even so, the catwalk feels way too thin imo, and could do with being widened a bit.
I'm not a fan in general of the entrances, I think mainly because of the height difference to the defending team, it feels too strong. It could just be because both entrances connect at the same junction, and they're both high-ground? I think separating the two entrances so you don't connect to the same area might work, but this isn't really a big deal - I didn't feel it was game breaking, just kind of awkward.
Speaking of awkward, the middle. I'm not really sure what to make of it. It doesn't feel natural to me. All the cliffs and wall-cover made it feel too cramped for me. I would like to see it more flattened out, removing the shingle-wall-cover things, and making it more of a mesa. This may be tricky to explain, but maybe cover up the lower middle route some more by bringing the high-ground closer together, so that players on top can still see down to the lower route and can fire into it, but can't directly access it except at the sides? Not sure what to do with the middle. Again, it's not game breaking, it just feels kind of weird to me.
I loved the side areas, they felt natural and iirc were frequently used when both teams started being offensive. I thought they looked cool and distinct from the rest of the map as well, and some shenanigans can be had there without it being crippling to either team (a soldier going out from there completely missed a sniper and ended up getting huntsmanned at like point blank range, so that was pretty fun.)
I do find that soldier/demo are best for capping, as they are (I think) the only two classes that can jump down from that catwalk entrance, nab the intel, then rocket/sticky jump back up and run away without having to fight through the rest of the base to escape. I'm unsure if the scout with a FaN can do that. Maybe this is intentional, I don't really see it as a flaw in the design myself, but just realize soldiers/demos have a fairly large advantage on this map.
I also felt that Engineer had a disadvantage, but that could just be because the engi(s) we played against let their buildings die pretty easily.
Hope this helps.
At first, nothing much was going on because both teams just camped the flag until they figured out wth was going on. Later on, it became much more oriented on offensive-based teamwork, and each team basically left an engi and heavy/medic guarding the flag, and the gameplay picked up quite a bit.
Now this might have been around the time that rocket jumping was screwed up, so this might not actually be the case, but the catwalk entrance was too high to consistently rocket jump too. It seemed I could barely make it. If this isn't a problem since they fixed the rocket jump bug, then never mind. Even so, the catwalk feels way too thin imo, and could do with being widened a bit.
I'm not a fan in general of the entrances, I think mainly because of the height difference to the defending team, it feels too strong. It could just be because both entrances connect at the same junction, and they're both high-ground? I think separating the two entrances so you don't connect to the same area might work, but this isn't really a big deal - I didn't feel it was game breaking, just kind of awkward.
Speaking of awkward, the middle. I'm not really sure what to make of it. It doesn't feel natural to me. All the cliffs and wall-cover made it feel too cramped for me. I would like to see it more flattened out, removing the shingle-wall-cover things, and making it more of a mesa. This may be tricky to explain, but maybe cover up the lower middle route some more by bringing the high-ground closer together, so that players on top can still see down to the lower route and can fire into it, but can't directly access it except at the sides? Not sure what to do with the middle. Again, it's not game breaking, it just feels kind of weird to me.
I loved the side areas, they felt natural and iirc were frequently used when both teams started being offensive. I thought they looked cool and distinct from the rest of the map as well, and some shenanigans can be had there without it being crippling to either team (a soldier going out from there completely missed a sniper and ended up getting huntsmanned at like point blank range, so that was pretty fun.)
I do find that soldier/demo are best for capping, as they are (I think) the only two classes that can jump down from that catwalk entrance, nab the intel, then rocket/sticky jump back up and run away without having to fight through the rest of the base to escape. I'm unsure if the scout with a FaN can do that. Maybe this is intentional, I don't really see it as a flaw in the design myself, but just realize soldiers/demos have a fairly large advantage on this map.
I also felt that Engineer had a disadvantage, but that could just be because the engi(s) we played against let their buildings die pretty easily.
Hope this helps.
Yes, the initial reaction is always "Hey, what's going on? Where does the intel go? I'm gonna follow it and see what it does!"
Any ctf map should focus on offensive teamwork really imo, so that's all good.
I can rocketjump up there fairly easy, just watch your head to not hit the catwalk on the way up, and use the crouch rocket jump. Perhaps it was just the bug.
The catwalk is thin because you should be vulnerable up there, it's a design I chose to give defence a way to counter the height differance in that area.
Height variation makes for a more fun and exciting game, in general (compared to completely flat maps...). The base layout favors offense somewhat because I wanted a ctf map that was very hard to defend (mind that it's still entirely possible to set up a solid defence with the right classes and map understanding).
The middle is completely new for b1 version, which means that part is practically a1 standard
I also feel that the middle is a little cramped and thought of making the lower route a little less accessible from above.
Remaking that part was a pain though, I'm amazed it even fits together as it is now. I have very limited space to work in and the base entrances (3 of em) are all on different heights. And keeping in mind it should be possible to traverse to the other side in other ways than over a single choke is also important...
What's in the map now was 1 of the better layouts I tried (I spend 2 days blocking out only that section, probably went trough 9 or so iterations with tweaking to each of them... it was incredibly boring and difficult :bored:
Even with your suggestions I'm unsure what you mean exactly, or how to improve it myself.
The thing is that the intel is only in that area (center of the base) for 30 seconds or so every 4 minutes. if a team is constantly being capped by that tactic they could relocate some offensive players on defense for that brief period. A lvl 1 sentry, a few stickies or even a pyro airblast could all ruin such an attack by themselves.
Engineers complaining that they can't camp the intelligence should start working their brains to be useful in other ways.
One very effective tactic is to use sentries to completely block off a entry/exit, or just put a sentry in the middle of a room to deny scouts and spies to just run around and do as they please.
It's always nice to hear what people think, If more people posted impressions as these, the difficulty of map development would probably halve
Thanks!
mtv22
L3: Member
- Feb 28, 2009
- 116
- 22
This map was really fun when we played it, the only real problem was when I first started I didn't know how to get out. I love the idea of a moving intel, it prevents engy camping and if you time it right you can grab the intel and rocket jump out of the base in a matter of seconds.
Can I get some opinions on whether the middle part is too small or just right?
I'm thinking of stretching it out a little and removing the ramps from the lower middle path -> bridge level.
Or am I imagining things and it's actually perfect as it is?
I'm thinking of stretching it out a little and removing the ramps from the lower middle path -> bridge level.
Or am I imagining things and it's actually perfect as it is?
- Feb 26, 2008
- 1,626
- 1,325
Middle, if anything, errs on the side of too big- bases seem much larger in comparison. I say keep it as is